“The Truth is from your Lord.’ Then whoever wills, let him believe, and whoever wills, let him disbelieve.” (Qur’an 18:29)
﷽
I would not be truthful if I did not tell the reader that I was very disheartened to learn that this is a position held among those who hail from the Deobandi movement. To see them fall short on this particular point of theology is hurtful. This is an important point of theological difference as it can undermine our confidence in some of the most basic and fundamental aspects of our faith.
I previously held the position that anyone who held this view or uttered this view was guilty of kufr. I turn to Allah (swt) in repentance over this. This is because as abhorrent as the view is to me I am not among the scholars and they are the one’s who make such very consequential judgements after much reflection and deliberation.
It is clear though, that this matter has split the ranks of the Ahl Sunnah. This is the declaration of Shaykh, Saleh bin Siddina al-Maliki, he himself a Sunni Muslim and a follower of the Maliki school of jurisprudence. The Shaykh has said that holding such a view or opinion is kufr (disbelief).
I know these words maybe quite strong and that is because I never have in my life come across a belief that is certainly so problematic for Muslims theologically that it is challenging to understand how anyone could entertain it, to begin with.
The theological musings of Darul Uloom Deoband have concerning Allah (swt) have to be among the most dangerous of theological speculations that have come from theology.
If I am to speak using emotive I would say that it is perhaps the absolutely most monstrous attributions to Allah (swt)! Not even the Christians ascribe lying to Allah (swt)!
This of course is not speaking to the laity and the regular adherents of the Deobandi school of thought, the common man. To those valiant brothers in the Tabligh Jamaat that go out in the path of Allah (swt) and call people back to the deen of Allah (swt). They are for the most part ignorant of this position. In fact the Tablighi Jamaat are the greatest dawah force in the Muslim Ummah (imo).
Deobandi scholars in general are known among the Muslim scholars to be people of wara and taqwa and among those who cling to the Sunnah of the Blessed Messenger (saw).
That being said I absolutely and utterly abhor the theological position that the Deobandi scholars have. Namely that Allah (swt) can lie. (May my Rabb forgive us and bring us back to our senses.)
So first thing is first. Let us read and listen from their own sources what they say on the matter.
https://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa-birmingham/87742
Notice in the above article they say:
“Falling into the topic which you have mentioned in your question, is extremely dangerous for the Iman of a believer“
Prima Qur’an comment: Yes, it should cause anyone who has an ounce of love for Allah (swt) and understanding of sound doctrine should flee as far away from this speculation as they can!
“The ulama of Deoband have explained this issue to the best of their knowledge according to the Quran and Sunnah. Therefore we need to look at this from an academic perspective rather than an emotional one.”
Prima Qur’an comment: To be quite honest my response to this theological speculation is emotional. However, they are correct in that the truth is truth regardless of how we feel about it. Islam is based upon proofs and evidences.
In the article in the link above after affirming that Allah doesn’t lie they then turnaround and affirm the following possibility:
“Thereafter they explained that Allah has the power to do whatever he wants. SO IF HE WANTED TO LIE, NOBODY CAN STOP HIM. No one can take that power away from him. There is a difference between “Allah does lie” and “ALLAH CAN LIE.”
Or the monstrous assertion that it is possible for Allah (swt) to create another like him!
Watch the following video:
@ 2:11 He says, “Let no man go away today and say Shaykh Mumtaz was saying Allah CAN lie, No!”
However, he turns around @ 1:38 and says, “But the OPTION Is there for Allah (swt), because he is Haqq he will never take that OPTION.”
Prima Qur’an comment: So he is saying that he CAN and worse he says that Allah (swt) could create another Allah (swt) but chooses not to! Yikes! (Oh Allah (swt) Rabb of Grace and Abundant Mercy, please forgive us and forgive our brothers and guide them to a course that is more just than this!) Amin!
The following verse of the Qur’an that absolutely grinds to powder and scatters into the four corners of the known existence such absurd theological speculation!
“There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing.” (Qur’an 42:11)
So what is Shaykh Mumtaz have in mind should Allah (swt) wish to create another Allah (swt)? Some type of Binitarian belief? Or if can create another like himself what’s the limit? Three? Some type of Trinitarian belief?
It is my sincere hope that those from Deoband will refrain from this type of theological speculation. I hope that they recant from this position in public and do sincere repentance to Allah (swt). Death waits for no one.
By Allah (swt) my heart has never felt more heavy and filled with sadness than to know that these people hold these positions!
It really does go to show you that Allah (swt) spoke the Haqq (unlike what scholars muse) when He said:
“Is not Allah sufficient for His Servant? And yet, they threaten you with those they worship other than Him. And whoever Allah allows to stray-for him there is no guide. And whoever Allah guides-no one can misguide. Is not Allah Exalted in Might and Owner of Retribution?” (Qur’an 39:36-37)
Refutation of this problematic doctrine.
The first issue is part of a much larger discussion centered around the following: Allah (swt) can do anything versus Allah (swt) has power over all things. I would recommend you read that article first:
- Attributes ascribed to His Self (Sifāt Dhātiyyah).
- Attributes ascribed to His Actions (Sifāt Fi’liyyah).
- Attributes ascribed to both His Self and His Actions (Sifāt Dhātiyyah Fi’liyyah)
The attribute of The Liar could not be attributed to category 1 because Allah (swt) has described himself as Al Haqq. It is not possible to be The Truth and The Liar simultaneously. Second the attribute of The Liar implies something eternal and external with Allah (swt). If Allah (swt) is The Liar than in relation to what? Third if Allah (swt) is to be described by the attribute of The Liar this means there can be no cohesion or symmetry in the universe. The universe can never make sense nor can it be intelligible in any meaningful way.
The attribute of lying can not be in category 2 as a possible act that Allah (swt) can dispense if he so chooses because of what is discussed in the above article: Allah can do anything versus Allah has power over all things.
Humans may need to lie or deceive due to some need, want, desire, or fear. None of this is applicable to Allah (swt). Alas, Allah (swt) does not have redundant attributes.
Lying is never a praiseworthy trait or quality.
“They think to deceive Allah and those who believe, but they deceive not except themselves and perceive it not.” (Qur’an 2:9)
“In their hearts is a disease, so Allah has increased their disease, and for them it is a painful punishment because they habitually used to lie.” (Quran 2:10)
“So He penalized them with hypocrisy in their hearts until the Day they will meet Him – because they failed Allah in what they promised Him and because they habitually used to lie.” (Qur’an 9:77)
“And who is more unjust than one who invents a lie about Allah or says, ‘It has been inspired to me,’ while nothing has been inspired to him, and one who says, ‘I will reveal something like what Allah revealed.’ And if you could but see when the wrongdoers are in the overwhelming pangs of death while the angels extend their hands, saying, ‘Discharge your souls! Today you will be awarded the punishment of [extreme] humiliation for what you used to say against Allah other than the truth and that you were, toward His verses, being arrogant.’” (Qur’an 6:93)
I sincerely implore the scholars of Deoband – to read these verses and immediately fall into sujud begging the Almighty Allah (swt) for forgiveness!
Dear brothers, this theological position is unbecoming of people who have produced some of the best scholars and students of knowledge in many fields of Islamic sciences.
Is this verse not befitting of them?
“Who is more unjust than one who events a lie about Allah (swt). One who says ‘it has been inspired by me’.” (Qur’an 6:93)
So these human beings were musing about Allah (swt) and suddenly there were some dark whispering to the subconscious mind that found fertile ground within their minds and souls to plant the most insidious theological speculation.
Surely Allah (swt) is our salvation! May Allah (swt) protect us from the evil insinuations of the one who whispers.
Allah (swt) says:
“Moreover, they have no knowledge. They follow not except assumption, and indeed, assumption avails not against the truth at all.” (Qur’an 53:28)
“And a believing man from the family of Pharaoh who concealed his faith said, ‘Do you kill a man merely because he says, “My Lord is Allah” while he has brought you clear proofs from your Lord? And if he should be lying, then upon him is the consequence of his lie; but if he should be truthful, there will strike you some of what he promises you. Indeed, Allah does not guide one who is a transgressor and a liar.’ ” (Qur’an 40:28)
“However, if they intend to deceive you – then sufficient for you is Allah. It is He who supported you with His help and with the believers. “(Qur’an 8:62)
“However, We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars.”(Qur’an 29:3)
“Only they forge the lie who do not believe in Allah’s communications, and these are the liars.” (Qur’an 16:105)
“So who is more unjust than he who invents a lie about Allah? Those will be presented before their Lord, and the witnesses will say, “These are the ones who lied against their Lord.” Unquestionably, the curse of Allah is upon the wrongdoers.” (Quran 11:18)
They have no measure to know whether they are deceived. They can only trust that they are not being deceived but they have no certainty. This destroys the very foundation of the religion of truth, the science of hadith, and everything else along with it. The big question for anyone who holds the position that Allah (swt) CAN lie is this:
If you believe that Allah (swt) CAN lie on what objective basis can you determine anything from Allah (swt) to be true? I have recently asked one of them this question 7 times and each time he evaded it.
They have certainly erred in their theological speculation about the divine by having the audacity to attribute to Allah (swt) the capacity and capability to lie!
May Allah (swt) protect our minds, our hearts from the whispers of devils, and from the approach of the hellfire and from theological speculation that brings us to the very depths of darkness where there is no light therein.
Their shameful musings about Allah (swt) opened the doors of sophistry which in turn would call into question the probity of the sources of religious knowledge altogether.
In reality, this theological speculation is an absolute feast for atheists and Christians!
How can we trust anything from Allah (swt)
The truth about Allah (swt), his oneness?
The truth about Rasul Allah (saw) being a Messenger of Allah (swt). That he is the last and final messenger?
The truth about the Qur’an is that it is a revelation from Allah (swt), the last and final message?
Issues of certainty and morality all of these things become issues of doubt and speculation due to the theological speculation of the scholars of Deoband.
Deobandis have effectively stripped every argument Muslims have against atheists, Christians, or anyone else. Why should an agnostic trade in his/her uncertainty for the uncertainty of Muslims?
They have also put themselves in a precarious situation. It would be very difficult for any other Muslim to take seriously or even discuss any matter or point of jurisprudence, theology, etc. with a representative of Deoband because there is nothing to be discussed. They can’t even say with all sincerity that they are upon the Haqq.
These people the Deobandi believe that it is possible for Allah (swt) to both lie and to be truthful! Because if Allah (swt) is Haqq and Allah (swt) does not change then why the theological speculation in regards to this?
To say that Allah (swt) has the potential to be both liar and truth sayer not only imputes lies to Allah azzawajala but it would entail a logical contradiction.
This reminds one of the atheists.
The Atheist who poses the following paradoxical question.
If Allah is Infinite and Unlimited in Power can He create a rock he cannot lift?
Which is a non-question? It is like asking if Allah (swt) can make a squared circle. It is a no-thing.
Such a rock can’t exist not because Allah (swt) is not All-Powerful but because He is!
Allah (swt) has Unlimited, Infinite Powers. This theoretical rock would also have to have MORE than infinite and unlimited powers so that Allah (swt) could not move it.
There’s no such thing as beyond infinite and unlimited so the question is flawed.
Infinity +1 There is no such thing, there is simply infinity.
I have answered that in detail here: https://primaquran.com/2020/07/16/answering-the-atheist-and-paradoxical-questions/
Allah (swt) cannot act contrary to his being. Allah acts consistently within his own essence, his own being.
The reason people fall into this trap is because of very poor training in theology and/or philosophy. They do not have an excellent foundation concerning the divine being. After all don’t they accept power as a basis for Allah (swt) being God? That is the whole point. There are certain qualities that make Allah, God.
Allah cannot, for example Not-Be Allah. Allah (swt) cannot be a sinner or be unholy. Allah (swt) cannot commit shirk.
Allah (swt) cannot be contained by space/time. All these things are inherent to the divine logic that is Allah (swt).
Based on logic there are things that cannot exist if another thing exists.
As Allah (swt) is Infinite and Unlimited in Power, a thing he can not do cannot exist because it violates the very principle of being Infinite and Unlimited in Power.
“He knows what is before them and what will be after them, but they do not encompass in knowledge. And all faces will be humbled before the Ever-Living, The Self Existent. And he will have failed who carries injustice.” (Qur’an 20:110-111)
Allah (swt) is described as the Ever-Living so it is IMPOSSIBLE for Allah (swt) to die. Allah (swt can’t will himself to die because it goes against what is intrinsic to the divine logic.
Their ridiculous claim is that you deny the power of Allah (swt). So ask them in turn this very simple question that will crush their falsehood.
If Allah (swt) can do anything Can Allah (swt) create a reality where he can’t do everything?
If the answer is no: They just admitted that Allah (swt) can’t do everything.
If they say yes, then it means they admit the possibility of a reality where Allah (swt) is not able to do all things.
Another point that crushes their speculation is the following:
The difference between us and those who hold the view that Allah (swt) CAN lie when it comes to the power of Allah (swt) is this:
They believe Allah (swt) is All-Powerful based upon speculation. Whereas the believers we believe Allah (swt) is All-Powerful based upon certainty.
“To Allah is your return, and He has power over all things.'” (Qur’an 11:4)
The basis for which those who say that Allah (swt) CAN lie is this verse. However, this verse is dependent upon Allah (swt) being Haqq and only Haqq.
The Deobandis have no objective basis on which to rest their argument. Because if both Truth and Lies can come from our Lord on what objective basis do they know that the verse in Qur’an 11:4 is true to begin with? Whereas the believers we believe that Allah (swt) is Al Haqq and thus we have certainty in what Allah (swt) reveals to us. It is not POSSIBLE for Allah (swt) to lie to us.
So coming to the doctrine of the Deobandis let us see what Allah (swt) says about Truth.
“The Truth is from your Lord.’ Then whoever wills, let him believe, and whoever wills, let him disbelieve.” (Qur’an 18:29)
Allah (swt) clearly says that Truth is from Him. Otherwise the phrase -“sadaqallahul azeem” -The Truth from Allah the Almighty, it would lose all meaning.
As truth is from Allah (swt) it is not even a POSSIBILITY for non-truth to come from Allah (swt).
Allah (swt) says:
“That is because Allah He is the Truth (Al Haqq) -the Only True God of all that exists, Who has no partners or rival, the ultimate reality, and what they (those who associate) invoke besides Him, it is Batil (falsehood) And verily, Allah He is the Highest, The Most Great.” (Qur’an 22:62)
“Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Surely, falsehood is ever bound to vanish.” (Qur’an 17:81)
“No! We hurl the Truth against Falsehood, and it crushes it. Behold, falsehood does perish! Woe to you for the false things you ascribe.” (Qur’an 21:18)
Oh, Allah (swt) please guide these people. Guide them and us. How can they attribute to Allah (swt) a possible attribute that can vanish or be overcome by other attributes?
Subhan’Allah! What more evidence do the Deobandi need?
May Allah (swt) bring us from darkness into light and may Allah (swt) cause the Muslims to be on guard against this type of theological speculation.
Allah (swt) says that He is Al Haqq. Allah (swt) says that is The Truth. Allah (swt) clearly contrasts himself with batil (falsehood). Allah (swt) cannot contain both batil and haqq and have this as part of his being. Both can never be attributed to Allah (swt)
Allah (swt) says:
“Truly, it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts which are in the breast that grow blind.” (Qur’an 22:46)
Allah (swt) says:
“So do not mix the truth with falsehood or conceal the truth while you know it.” (Qur’an 2:42)
Mixing truth with falsehood is something that sinful man does. Are we going to really attribute the ability to mix truth with falsehood to the one who shaped and formed us in the womb, who provides for our every need, who is the very Lord of the Throne?!!
Moreover again we have:
“So to Allah belong the best names, so invoke Him by them. And leave [the company of] those who practice deviation concerning His names. They will be recompensed for what they have been doing.” (Qur’an 7:180)
How could they even conceive as a possibility that one of the best attributes of Allah (swt) could be “The Untruthful” ?!?
This is what Allah (swt) says about those who believe that Allah (swt) has the potentiality of having sons.
“Where at the heavens might well-nearly be rent into fragments, and the earth be split asunder, and the mountains fall down in ruins!” (Qur’an 19:90)
This is for attributing to Allah (swt) the mere potentiality of having sons can you imagine what Allah (swt) has in store for those who would attribute the mere possibility and potentiality of being “The Lord of Untruthfulness“? May Allah (swt) forgive them and us. May Allah (swt) guide them and us.
Deoband certainly needs to reconsider this. There is nothing to lose and everything to gain by simply stating that this is no longer a theological position that they hold to. Their scholars believe that Allah (swt) CAN lie.
They give arguments and ammunition that will unfortunately tickle the imagination of the enemies of the faith.
As shown in the video above even one of their learned people believes that Allah (swt) CAN create another Allah (swt) !!
“Therefore be patient; surely the promise of Allah is true and let not those who have no certainty hold you in light estimation. (Qur’an 30:60)
Dear readers, fellow Muslim brothers and sisters reading this. I strongly advocate for unity and cooperation among all Muslims. I am very strongly against this theological position from Deoband.
I would implore, urge, beg them to reconsider it. If not for the good of this Muslim ummah for the safety and passage of their own well being into the next life. To refrain from stating with the tongue theological speculation that can not bring any good. If we human beings are not infallible and a scholar is not infallible what harm would come to Deoband and it’s reputation if they simply admitted to an error here? Everyone in the Muslim Ummah knows their are giants in knowledge among them.
“And say: …So, after the truth, what else can there be, save error?” (Qur’an 10:32)
Prima Quran 
Ah, you’ve discovered Molvi “Option-is-der.” Congrats 😂
It’s insane and frightening
It’s a lie against the Darul Uloom Deoband to say that Darul Uloom Deoband believes that Allah can speak lies.
What is your proof that Darul Uloom Deoband believes that Allah can speak lies.
We await your proof!
Dont shy away.
Darul Ifta Birmingham and Shiekh Mumtazul Haq are not representatives of Darul Uloom Deoband. What they say, may not be attributed to Darul Uloom Deoband.
Get your facts straight before accusing Darul Uloom Deoband.
First, I’ll do my best to be shy as having shyness and having shame are from the fitra and from Islam.
Only Shaitan calls to us not to be shy.
This monstrous doctrine wherever and whoever upholds it was refuted.
You say they don’t represent you or your creed….”Ismail”
Then how about you give us the links websites, online videos etc about your people repudiating the idea.
Furthermore primaquran@gmail.com
Always welcome to contact me directly.
I HAVE ASKED A QUESTION CLEARLY:
What is your proof that Darul Uloom Deoband believes that Allah can speak lies.
You have spoken of Darul Uloom Deoband. we are not speaking of whoever and whatever. we are speaking of Darul Uloom Deoband!
Give me the proof that Darul Uloom Deoband believes in such a notorious doctrine!
That is what I am asking. You made a claim about Darul Uloom Deoband. so substantiate your claim with proofs.
For example, you said: “I would strongly urge you to abandon the Darul Uloom Deoband and disassociate with them until they publicly recant from their theological speculation.”
You first give proof that DARUL ULOOM DEOBAND is of that view. Then we can talk of repudiating the slander.
“Bring forth your proof if indeed you are truthful.”
Bismillah ir rahman ir raheem, Al hamduilllah I’m thankful you have refrained from calling me away from shyness.
I’m also thankful that your heart and soul is as disturbed by such a doctrine calling it “notorious”. Mash’Allah! It is not only notorious it is evil.
It is a doctrine that only those who gave in to the whispers of devils would be open to attributing to Allah (swt).
Now because I am dealing with people who say that it is possible for Allah (swt) to lie, I have to wonder about the adherents of such a doctrine.
If they believe it is possible for Allah (swt) may they also see lying as modus oprehendi for themselves?
So I need you you to understand this.
When I say DARUL ULOOM DEOBAND I am not talking about the brick and mortar. I am not talking about the concrete, wood , chairs, tables. I am not talking about the building or even the location itself. I am not talking about inanimate objects that can neither speak or understand anything.
I am wanting to make that clear as broad daylight so you are not trying to waste everyone’s time with some semantics.
When I say “DARUL ULOOOM DEOBAND”. I am speaking about either past or present teachers, scholars, teachers, imams, daiees who have come from that school, are affiliated with that school, and have strong association with that school. I am speaking about websites, fatwas issued on behalf of those whom that DARUL ULOOM DEOBAND has NEVER repudiated or distanced themselves from.
So I want to make sure that is clear as day light for you.
I also want to make sure that when your grasp of the English language is such that you know that I understand the difference between:
“Allah does lie” and “Allah CAN lie” -both of which we seem to agree upon as being a “notorious doctrine” and it is an evil doctrine that holy men, Allah fearing men, lovers of the Blessed Messenger (saw) would not dare to espouse with even a shred of decency.
Is my definition and understanding of what ‘Darul Uloom Deoband’ is clear to you?
Bismillah ir rahman ir raheem, Praise be to Allah (swt), The Ever Truthful, The one who does not lie, nor is capable of lying.
May Allah (swt) safeguard protect and purify the faith of the believers. May Allah (swt) expose the lies and the falsehood of any claimant who says that Allah (swt) CAN lie or that it is POSSIBLE for Allah (swt) to lie.
Now I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and I want to think that you are not one (of many people) who come to this blog to troll others.
So before we can proceed on this conversation I need you to be very honest about the following questions.
Do you or do you not consider Rashid Ahmad Gangohi a deobandi scholar?
Do you or do you not consider Rashid Ahmad Gangohi affiliated with Dar Uloom Deoband?
Do you now consider Mahmud al-Hasan a deobandi scholar?
Did not Mahmud Al-Hasan graduate from Darul Uloom Deoband?
In a previous response to you I have been very clear on who and what I consider ‘Darul Uloom Deoband’ to be.
So now before we can go any further at all. We need to know where you stand.
Do you or do you not consider Rashid Ahmad Gangohi a deobandi scholar?
Do you or do you not consider Rashid Ahmad Gangohi affiliated with Dar Uloom Deoband?
Do you now consider Mahmud al-Hasan a deobandi scholar?
Did not Mahmud Al-Hasan graduate from Darul Uloom Deoband?
You know that my article is NOT aimed at people who say Allah (swt) DOES lie or that Allah (swt) DID lie. (authubilla min dhalik).
My article is aimed at the very tongue twisting, slippery nature of those people who say the following:
It is POSSIBLE for Allah (swt) to lie.
Allah (swt) CAN DO ANYTHING.
Allah (swt) CAN lie.
My article is aimed at people who say, “Our scholars say who ever says Allah lied is a Kafir. HOWEVER”
My article is aimed at the AHL HOWEVER (the people of however).
My article is aimed at people who say, “Our scholars say that Allah does not lie NEVERTHELESS.”
My article is aimed at the AHL NEVERTHELESS (the people of nevertheless).
If you find yourself among the Ahl Nevertheless or the Ahl However, than rest assured “Ismail” the article is directed towards you.
May Allah (swt) guide us to what is beloved to Allah (swt).
May Allah (swt) cause our hearts not to swerve after receiving guidance.
post the views of Rashid Ahmed Gangohi and Mahmudul Hasan on this issue and from there we can take it further.
Once we have their comments or views or Fatwas in black and white where they have stated that Allah can lie or possibly speak lies, then we may take it further.
thanks and dont forget to put page numbers and references etc
Bismillah,
Before I entertain anymore of your comments or questions you need to do the following.
#1 Do you agree with my understanding of what constitutes Dar Al Uloom?
#2) Do you agree that Rashid Ahmed Gangohir and Mahmudul Hasan are associated with or have been a part of the Debandi movement and/or Dar AL Uloom.
If you are unable to address these two questions than you are done here.
Thank you.
as far as Rashid Ahmed Gangohi and Mahmudul Hasan are concerned – they are part and associated with Deoband. They are Ulama deoband.
But to regard graduates of Darul Uloom Deoband to be “ulama e deoband’ or to mention thier views as deobands views is not always correct. some people qualify in deoband, but are anti deoband or they presnet views which are not the views of deoband.
dont duck and dive from now please. give the fatwas in black and white.
lets wait now for the Fatwas in black and white.
Ismail it is you and your people who are playing games.
This is a link in English (as this is what the people here are reading and following) not Urdu, Gujurati or anything else.
https://reliablefatwas.com/barelwi-slanders-ulama-e-haqq/slandering-hadhrat-maulana-rashid-ahmad-gangohi/
That is as pro Rashid Ahmed Gangohi as you can get!
Yet if you read carefully you see the following:
“Whoever believes with regard to Allah Ta’ala or says verbally that Allah speaks lies, is an absolute kaafir and mal’oon (accursed). He is an opponent of the Qur’aan Hadith and the Ijma’ (Consensus of the Ummah. Never is he a Mu’min.
“Allah Ta’ala is most high and above the (falsehood) which the transgressors speak.”
HOWEVER….”
He was actually doing so good up until the HOWEVER.
Than you see the two examples he gives:
1) That Allah swt could forgive someone he promised would go to hell.
2) That Allah (swt) could destroy the universe right this very moment though He (swt) will choose to do so latter.
If you do not see that as an attempt of reasoning with people (like myself) who object to the very idea that ALLAH SWT COULD LIE than there is absolutely no helping you.
Are you going to deny that your Mufti that your Shaykh Rashid Ahmed Gangohi said the following?
Rashid Ahmad Gangohi said:
“The meaning of the possibility of (Allah) lying is that it is within the power of Allah to lie, meaning that whatever punishment has been promised (for the Kuffaar or sinners) by Allah, He has the Power to do the opposite to that even if He does not do it. Possibility does not necessarily mean occurance, but that it can occur … . So the beliefs of all the Scholars, Sufis and Ulema of Islam is that lies are within the Power of Allah. (Allah can lie).”
Fatawa-e-Rasheedia, vol. 1 pg. 20, lines 11,12,14 and 15 (published: Kutub Khana Raheemia, Delhi – Press: Jayyad Barqi Press, Delhi)
???
As you Ismail seem to have made up your mind on this matter we will leave it to the readers to investigate and to judge.
It is rather plain and obvious that your Rashid Ahmed Gangohi believed in the ability and possibility for Allah (swt) to lie.
Here is another incredible site that goes to the extent of saying that even when we do produce the evidence of what Rashid Ahmed Gangohi said, it is now claimed to be a forgery, a fake!!!
So it looks like you people have three positions.
1) Outright deny such a belief and if that is what you truly believe than may Allah (swt) bless and protect you.
2) Try and explain away such a belief (as you seen) In other words not deny that you believe such a possibility but to try and rationalize it.
3) With documents starting you in the evidence by those who can read and understand Arabic, Urdu, Punjabi etc. to turn around now and say such works are forgeries, and lies.
it seems as if you don’t understand ENglish – let alone even the talk of Arabic, urdu, Punjabi, etc!!!
We have only one question for you:
Firoun is declared a Jahannami in the Qur’aan. However if you dont know this, then you are very stupid.
So when Firoun is declared a Jahannami in the Qur’aan, does Allah still have the power to admit him into Jannah?
Answer with a simple yes or no
and you will HOWEVER realize how stupid indeed you are.
Enjoy your Day!
Well and there you have it respected readers.
May Allah swt guide the people from such carless and thoughtless doctrines.
yes, there you have it.
You are incapable of answering the question.
as simple as that
The whole of this post is about responding to the evil doctrine that you espouse.
First of all after all this running around we come full circle to you using the very arguments that were already referenced and refuted.
You use the same arguments for those who believe that it is POSSIBLE for Allah (swt) to lie.
Even after making a huge fuss over how this wasn’t your belief!
Well of course you can lie and be dishonest because you ascribe the possibility of such things to Allah (swt) without any since of shame.
The answer to your question is no.
The problem is you people think just because we human beings need to eat, procreate and sleep and Allah (swt) cannot do these things it some how constitutes a lack or humans can do what Allah (swt) cannot do.
The problem with your reasoning is that we do these things exactly because of our lack, exactly because of our limitations.
You see you and I believe in two different concepts of Allah (swt) actually.
I believe in Allah (swt) the omniscient.
You believe in some deity that can/needs to change his mind.
The changing of his mind would be based upon some reason and surely that reason would have been known to my Creator to begin with (maybe not to your god).
If you say your god needs to change his mind for no reason than you are saying that your god is whimsical.
So the answer is no, the creator cannot be imperfect, the creator cannot be non omniscient.
The creator cannot lie.
You honestly have to ask yourself at some point Ismail, ‘what makes God , God?’
What is it that make the divine, God? What properties/qualities.
You and those of you among the Deobandis are still struggling with this.
May Allah (swt) guide you to the Haqq.
Ismail, don’t talk about another person’s English when the very best that can be said about yours is that it’s “adequate.”
well. Mr. jassie. you may continue denying the Qudrat of Allah. we do not follow the corrupt ibaadhi sect that destines people to jahannam due to their sins. and for which they have no proof
Well Mr. Ismail you and your ilk can continue to supply Christians with arguments against Islam. And people like me will rise up and stop you.
As this was the latest comment from you, I believe the readers can take it that you have exhausted your arguments as this is the case with batil.
For those who follow this thread you can see where we critiqued the deobandis who on the basis of their theology give Christianity arguments against Islam.
https://primaquran.wordpress.com/2019/04/22/deobandis-believe-that-allah-swt-uses-silly-arguments-against-christians/
This is due to the Deobandis severely misunderstanding Maturidi aqeeda. The Maturidis believe that it is rationally inconceivable for Allah (swt) to lie or commit injustice etc because this would contradict the attribute of Divine Wisdom not the attribute of Divine Power. The Asharis don’t hold Divine Wisdom as a separate and distinct attribute for Allah (swt) so they believe that it is impossible by definition for Allah (swt) to lie or commit injustice etc as the concept is solely defined with reference to His Will. So essentially both schools hold that it is rationally inconceivable for Allah (swt) to lie or commit injustice but for different reasons. The Deobandis have twisted this by thinking because the Maturidis refute the attribution of lying/injustice to Allah (swt) by grounding their argument in the attribute of Divine Wisdom rather than Divine Power, then it is possible to make absurd statements like « Allah (swt) can lie » (audhubillah).
PLEASE CLICK ON THESE LINKS AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION.
Click to access Fayslah%20Kun%20Munazarah_PART_1.pdf
Click to access Fayslah%20Kun%20Munazarah_PART_2.pdf
Please understand that I have a duty to try and protect the readers from any type of phishing or any thing of that nature.
Can you tell us what these links are for? You show up and comment and simply drop off these links. If you can give us some context I would appreciate it otherwise I will delete the comment.
Seek your kind understanding.
Jazakallah Khairan Katheera,
Wa iyyak
Eish, but those books are nice. I see in fayslah kun munazarah, it speaks and beautifully clarifies about Allah and lies. Primaquran, please respond to book. Check part 2.
I am here to enter act with comments. If anyone has a point they want to bring then let them bring it. I cannot count the times people asked me to read this book or plough through this 998pg pdf only to find out it answered nothing nor provided anything new.
Thus, whomever has a point bismillah let them bring it.
Before i ask you question i want to clarify i am here to learn
Now my question is as follows
A non muslim or a person out of Milla of islam (as you call them) asks i believe that Qur’an is from God but how do I know that what he is telling is truth or he is not lying
If your answer is there is no reason to do it for him
There are things which we don’t know reason of like what is the intention of Allah for creating us (may be this is the only one because other than this everything we do is to worship him)
So likewise what is the intention of Allah lying
Or why will Allah lie is similar to why will Allah create anything at all but he did we know that we exist
Secondly you said Allah cannot create a rock that he can’t lift because this is against the belief that Allah is all powerful which can be proved by cosmological argument or necessity of us existing implies that there is someone all powerful creator because if he is not all powerful then he will not be able to create everything
And
Allah cannot create someone like him because it will contradict the very attribute of Allah of being creator at time he created something it will be created so it cannot be Allah
Someone can say you are putting logic and cosmological argument above Qur’an
As I said in beginning if a disbeliever of Qur’an before coming in islam he/she wants answer to why Qur’an is truth we are proving that Qur’an is truth how can we prove Qur’an is truth from Qur’an
Hope u understand the question
Waiting for answer
Thanku
I believe you have made a double post. I will respond to this one to the best of my abilities and delete the other.
“There are things which we don’t know reason of like what is the intention of Allah for creating us (may be this is the only one because other than this everything we do is to worship him)”
Allah (swt) has clearly told us the reason for our creation:
“I did not create jinn and humans except to worship Me.” (Qur’an 51:56)
“So likewise what is the intention of Allah lying Or why will Allah lie is similar to why will Allah create anything at all but he did we know that we exist.”
My apologies but if I may ask is English your first language? Because I did not really understand that at all.
How can Allah (swt) not know something? That is another impossibility for Allah (swt). As Allah (swt) has full grasp of all things.
Allah (swt) does not lie as this is an impossibility for Allah (swt).
“Someone can say you are putting logic and cosmological argument above Qur’an.”
It is clear that Allah (swt) appeals to reason and logic in the Qur’an itself. Unless someone has some spiritual experience (which is subjective) or simply are drawn to our faith for what ever reason the only other way for human beings to make any points on any subject is to appeal to the faculty of reason.
I will answer your first question here as I feel that it is the most crucial question.
“is from God but how do I know that what he is telling is truth or he is not lying.”
Basically the person is asking “How do we know that Allah (swt) is not lying about being truthful?”
The answer to this is as follows: Allah (swt) has to be absolutely true otherwise we are in a conundrum and a circular logic in which we cannot know anything for certain.
I remember one time when I was giving a tour guide and this man blurted out “There is no truth and nothing is true.” And I turned and asked him: “Is that true?”
If someone says “we cannot know anything for certain.” That very statement is flawed because it would have to be subject to the very criteria meaning we could know something for certain.
Therefore you could reply to this person the following:
“aaaaahhh baaaa kaaaa” why can you reply to them as such? Because it answers their questions. If anything can be anything than this answers their question.
Allah (swt) is Al Haqq The Absolute Truth and therefore cannot have the quality of being false.
Lastly it needs to be understood very carefully what we mean by Allah (swt) can or cannot do something.
1) Does Allah (swt) have power over all things? The answer is yes. If you say that Allah (swt) does not have power over all things than this is the statement of someone who doesn’t believe in Allah (swt).
2) Since Allah (swt) has power over all things we would not say Allah (swt) has power over no-thing. So for example the rock that cannot be lifted, another Allah (swt) are no-things as they are non-existents.
I do agree that logic and reason can only take us so far. However, if abandon them completely and we hold to chaos than nothing means nothing.
Which means your friend cannot ask questions. This sentence is not intelligible. etc…
May Allah (swt) continue to bless and guide us all.
Yes English is my second language so, sorry
The point is not that what Allah commands us to do or what is our purpose but what was Allah’s intention to create us like why will allah create us when he is in need of nothing
Likewise what is intention of Allah for lying is similar to what is the intention of Allah for creating us when he needs nothing
A question which is similar is IS GOD GOOD OR WHATEVER GOD SAYS OR COMMANDS BECOMES GOOD
The quality of lying is not similar to other acts which contradicts his attribute of all powerful or creator or all knowledgeable because these attributes can be derived from logic and reasoning but the attribute of truthful can only be known by Qur’an ( am i correct? Can the attribute of truthfulness be derived from logic?)
Jazakallahu khayran
Maybe this will help you if Allah wills.
To ask you some questions.
The act or attribute of lying.
Why do people lie? What motivates people to lie?
Next question. Is the universe you see one of chaos or order?
If I type this to you @÷=/___753 do you understand it?
Once you have pondered these points inshAllah you will have your answers.
May Allah (swt) guide from their darkness those who ascribe the possibility of evil to their Rabb.
One more point to add is that you said God is 100% good but good itself comes from God obedience of Allah is good defiance of Allah is evil isn’t it
Lying is something evil because Allah commands us not to do it
Am I right?
Thank you for your questions. Kindly give the quotes that you are referencing so I can interact with the quotes directly. Thank you.