Proof from the Ibadi school that the punishment of hellfire is ever lasting.

“And they say, “Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days.” Say, “Have you taken a covenant with Allah? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?” Yes, whoever earns evil and his sin has encompassed him – those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.” (Holy Qur’an 2:80-81)

As mentioned in a previous post we would like to clarify that for those of us who follow ‘Ahl haqq wal istiqamah’ or also known as the Ibadi school of Islam, for us it is not important if our school is right or wrong on matter.

What is important for us is that we are following the clear evidence as given by the Holy Qur’an and the agreed-upon traditions of the Blessed Messenger (saw)- Al Sunnah.

The first point of clarification. Difference between infinite and everlasting (going backward and forward in time).

The difference between infinite and everlasting. Infinite is something beyond counting, beyond a real measurement. In this regard, only Allah (swt) is truly eternal. The knowledge of the created things is eternal.

Knowledge of the eternal does not equate to the eternality of the thing known.

Where was everlasting is enduring forever; existing or continuing without end.

“That is Allah, your Lord; there is no deity except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Disposer of all things.” (Holy Qur’an 6:102)

Only Allah (swt) has no beginning.

Some may wonder is such an article necessary? What benefit does this have for the Muslim community? Such an article is necessary and it has immense benefit for those who are willing to take heed. Every one of us has come short of the Glory of Allah (swt). Every one of us has fallen short in some aspect our relationship with Allah (swt). Some of us more so than others.

Do you ever wonder about the moral erosion even in the Muslim communities? Do you think that this possibly has some root in the theology that Muslims have concerning the afterlife?

Do you not think that an attitude that says:

  1. I’ll only be in the hellfire for a little while.
  2. The Blessed Messenger (saw) will make intercession for me so I have nothing to worry about.

Do you not think that such attitudes are flippant? To already treat hellfire as such a light matter has certainly led many of us not to fear Allah (swt).

An over-emphasis on the Love of Allah (swt). Of course, Allah (swt) is known as Al-Wadud (The Loving) twice in the Holy Qur’an. After that people have to read Rumi and other forms of poetry and books of saints to get their fix.

However, the Al-Nar (The Fire) is mentioned some 120+ times.

Jahnnam (The Abode of Hell) is mentioned some 70+ times.

Jaheem (Blazing Flames) is mentioned 20+ times.

It is a theme that is threaded all throughout the Holy Qur’an.

I have often wondered at the success of Christian evangelism throughout certain parts of the world. Certainly, they bring food, build wells, hospitals, and schools. All of this is good and Muslims are doing this and should increase our efforts in doing this. Yet, for the Evangelicals, there is one central message that comes packaged with this help. That message is one that says, ‘I care about your eternal hereafter‘. It is a frightening warning, that without faith in Christ Jesus we will burn for all eternity. Unless one is in the habit of scoffing outright at such a proclamation it is certainly something many take very seriously.

“And thus We have revealed to you an Arabic Qur’an that you may warn the Mother of Cities [Makkah] and those around it and warn of the Day of Assembly, about which there is no doubt. A party will be in Paradise and a party in the Blaze.” (Holy Qur’an 42:7)

Allah (swt) revealed the Holy Qur’an in Arabic. He wanted the Blessed Messenger (saw), to convey the message about the day of resurrection, that people would be in paradise and that people would be in hellfire.

Now with calling people to Allah (swt) there should be a methodology and a wisdom in how we call people. Yet, it cannot be denied that the Blessed Messenger (saw) was sent to warn people against the hellfire.

Keep in mind as well those very few but loud voices that say that hellfire is an allegory, are now saying the same thing about paradise and the resurrection. They came as a packaged message.

“This is the fire which you used to deny. Is this an illusion (afasih’run) or is it you who are still unable to see?” (Holy Qur’an 52:14-15)

I would like to begin as well with a quotation that is a very heartfelt response taken by the majority of Sunni Muslims today. That those who commit the major sins will still enter the paradise. As well as the view as taken by the majority of Sunni Muslims that sinful Muslims will eventually enter paradise.

“This objection is rejected in that, on the basis of this opinion of theirs, they must then say that the committers of fornication, those who do the deed of the people of Lut, the consumers of usury, the killers of souls without right, those who prevent the payment of zakah, and the rest of the people who commit major sins other than shirk, will be counted among the righteous who have been promised Bliss, and a greater contentment from Allah. By Allah, there is no more effective means to demolish the foundations of the religion, to abase the rituals, to diffuse the evil, than this opinion. It demolishes all the commands and prohibitions of Allah and blows up everything that has come in His Book and the Sunnah of His Messenger, of the warning for the people who commit major sins. It is sufficient that fornication, homosexuality, drinking wine, indifference to being cuckolded, and all the prohibited things will be among acts of righteousness because their committers are in the ranks of the righteous.” -Shaykh Ahmad b. Hamad al-Khalili (Grand Mufti of the Sultanate of Oman)

“The belief of us Ibadis is that whoever enters the Fire from among the muwahhid disobedient and the associators (mushriks) will remain there in permanently, not for a finite period.”-Shaykh Ahmed b. Hamad al-Khalili

“The difference between us and the Kharijis is that they oppose us only in that they judge of every punishable act of shirk entailing expulsion from the millah.”-Shaykh Ahmed b. Hamad al-Khalili.

Looking at the evidence from the Holy Qur’an

“And they say, “Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days.” Say, “Have you taken a covenant with Allah? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know?” Yes, whoever earns evil and his sin has encompassed him – those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally (khaliduna).”(Holy Qur’an 2:80-81)

Among the people who believe that hellfire is not permanent are the Jews. This assertion of theirs is rebuked and made public to emphasize how very wrong they were in their assertion.

The idea of being in the hellfire ‘except for a few days‘ or ‘awhile’ is juxtaposed next to the phrase ‘companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally‘.

There are those who will object to the word khaliduna. Two things must be kept in mind.

  1. The term khaliduna is being contrasted with the bold lie that of being in hell for a little while.
  2. ” And We granted not to any human being immortality before you (O Muhammad), then if you die, would they live forever (khaliduna)?” (Holy Qur’an 21:34) -This verse contrast living a long time with living forever.

Whom Allah (swt) addressed in verses: 81-82 It is very clear that this distinguishes a few days, a little while non-permanence with everlasting permanence.

This is another text that should make this very clear.

“But I have for you only notification from Allah and His messages.” And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger – then indeed, for him is the fire of Hell; they will abide therein(khalidina) forever (abadan).” (Holy Qur’an 72:23)

Those who do not understand the evident text and wording of khalidina to be forever than would also have to come to terms with the idea that heaven is not abiding forever, the paradise will not abide forever, neither the blessed messenger (saw) or his family.

They will one day come out of paradise. Do you believe it?

The idea of hellfire being some temporary stay is certainly Jewish penetration into Islamic thought.

“This because they say: “The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days.” What will happen to their belief when We bring them together on the Inevitable Day when every soul will be justly recompensed for its deeds?” For their forgeries deceive them as to their own religion.” (Holy Qur’an 3:24)

There are two things to take note of for those who fear Allah (swt) in the above verse:

  1. These people will say hell is only a numbered amount of days are going to be in for a really terrible surprise when they approach the inevitable day. ‘What will happen to their belief’
  2. These lies have deceived them about their own religion-that there could be laxity in obeying the commands of Allah (swt).

“But whoever kills a believer intentionally – his recompense is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment.” (Holy Qur’an 4:93)

Killing is a major sin (less than shirk) but still deserving of everlasting hellfire.

“Those who consume interest cannot stand on the Day of Resurrection except as one stand who is being beaten by Satan into insanity. That is because they say, “Trade is just like interest.” But Allah has permitted trade and has forbidden interest. So whoever has received an admonition from his Lord and desists may have what is past, and his affair rests with Allah. But whoever returns to dealing in interest or usury- those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide eternally therein.(Holy Qur’an 2:275)

“For them who have done good is the best reward and extra. No darkness will cover their faces, nor humiliation. Those are companions of Paradise; they will abide therein eternally. But they who have earned blame for evil doings – the recompense of an evil deed is its equivalent, and humiliation will cover them. They will have from Allah no protector. It will be as if their faces are covered with pieces of the night – so dark, are they. Those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.” (Holy Qur’an 10:26-27)

Comments:

People who were in hell for a while and then admitted to heaven can hardly be described as having, “no darkness covering their faces nor humiliation.”

Those who do not understand the evident text and wording of khalidina to be forever than would also have to come to terms with the idea that heaven is not abiding forever, the paradise will not abide forever, neither the blessed messenger (saw) or his family.

They will one day come out of paradise. Do you believe it?

“And those who say, “Our Lord, avert from us the punishment of Hell. Indeed, its punishment is (gharanama) everlasting debt…” (Holy Qur’an 25:65)

Our Lord! bring us out of this: if ever we return to Evil, then shall we be wrong-doers indeed!” He will say: “Be driven into it with ignominy! And do not speak to Me!” (Holy Qur’an 107- 108)

“But as for those who defiantly disobeyed, their refuge is the Fire. Every time they wish to emerge from it, they will be returned to it while it is said to them, “Taste the punishment of the Fire which you used to deny.” (Holy Qur’an 32:20)

“And for those who disbelieve will be the fire of Hell. Death is not decreed for them so they may die, nor will its torment be lightened for them. Thus do we recompense every ungrateful one. And they will cry out therein, “Our Lord, remove us; we will do righteousness – other than what we were doing!” But did We not grant you life enough for whoever would remember therein to remember, and the warner had come to you? So taste the punishment, for there is not for the wrongdoers any helper.” (Holy Qur’an 35:36-37)

“And those who do not invoke with Allah another deity or kill the soul which Allah has forbidden to be killed, except by right, and do not commit unlawful sexual intercourse. And whoever should do that will meet a penalty. Their punishment will be multiplied on the Day of Judgment, and they will remain in it forever (wayakhlud), in disgrace .” (Holy Qur’an 25:68-69)

“So taste the penalty, and never will We increase you except in torment.” (Holy Qur’an 78:30)

“Indeed, the righteous will be in pleasure, And indeed, the wicked will be in Hellfire. They will [enter to] burn therein on the Day of Recompense, And will not be removed from it.” (Holy Qur’an 82:13-16)

“Indeed, Allah has cursed the ungrateful and prepared for them a Blaze Abiding therein forever (khalidina fiha abadan), they will not find a protector or a helper., they will not find a protector or a helper.” (Holy Qur’an 33:64-65)

Comments:

  1. These people are not going to be let out during Ramadan (no helper no protector)
  2. Allah (swt) is not going to release them after a period of time. (no helper no protector)
  3. They find no reprieve in the annihilation of hellfire and/or their own existence (no helper no protector).

“Indeed, those who disbelieve and commit wrong or injustice – never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a path. Except for the (tariqah)path of Hell; they will abide therein forever (khalidina fiha abadan). And that, for Allah, is always easy.” (Holy Qur’an 4:168-169)

“But the ones who disbelieved and denied Our verses – those are the companions of the Fire, abiding eternally (khalidina) therein; and wretched is the destination.” (Holy Qur’an 64:10)

“Indeed, the criminals will be in the punishment of Hell, abiding eternally (khaliduna). It will not be allowed to subside for them, and they, therein, are in despair. And We did not wrong them, but it was they who were the wrongdoers. And they will call, “O Malik, let your Lord put an end to us!” He will say, “Indeed, you will remain.” (Holy Qur’an 43:74-77)

Comments:

Once again if anyone has any doubts about khaliduna being eternal, forever, everlasting the guardian of Hellfire himself, the noble angel Malik told the inhabitants that they will remain there.

The proof of the enduring, eternal everlasting nature of the punishment of hellfire is overwhelming. In fact, based upon the evidence that has been given every place in the Holy Qur’an that talks about hellfire (is talking about eternal agony)

This is absolutely terrifying. In fact, I would encourage anyone reading this to go and listen to their favorite Qur’an reciter, reciting the verses of hellfire and you will feel as if a hand had reached deep within your soul and shook you to the core of your being! Except possibly those whose hearts are dead or bereft of faith. May Allah (swt) protect us from that!

POSSIBLE OBJECTIONS TO THIS FIRMLY ESTABLISHED BELIEF.

First, it is important to understand that there are two groups here:

  1. There is Jahm bin Safwan and Ibn Al Qayyim. Keep in mind that most of what is know about Jahm is through polemical works directed at him so how fair the assessment is can be debated. Their understanding is that there is an end of punishment for both the associators and the muwahhid disobedient.
  2. The Ash’ari holds permeance for both places. However, they hold that the non-muwahhid will abide in hell forever, whereas the muwahhid disobedient will be in hell for a short while (undefined).

As regards the term ‘khalidina‘ both groups try to dismiss this by interpreting it metaphorically. We have already shown above the problem with doing this, especially when we look at context.

As regards evidence that Jahm bin Safwan advanced to show that heaven and hell are not eternal is the following:

He is the First and the Last, the Ascendant and the Intimate, and He is, of all things, Knowing.” (Holy Qur’an 57:3)

The argument is that if we understand this is that as Allah (swt) is The Last it means heaven and hell cannot be enduring.

We understand ‘The First and The Last‘ as The First meaning taking precedence and The Last as remaining after every existent. Nothing brought into being changes Allah (swt) or cancels out anything about him.
precedence over -remaining after every existent. Nothing is before Him and nothing is after Him.

We also understand that Allah (swt) is one. However, we do not understand this as numerically ‘one‘ as zero precedes one.

Another proof that is used is:

“They will abide therein for ages.” (Holy Qur’an 78:23)

The argument is that ages come to an end.

It simply an expression of time. One age passes another follows. Note it does not say ‘until the ages end‘.

Even one has to agree the evidence here is implicit. Whereas the explicit is what is mentioned here 5:37

“They would desire to go forth from the fire, and they shall not go forth from it, and they shall have a lasting punishment.” (Holy Qur’an 5:37)

Everything will perish save His Face.” (Holy Qur’an 28:88)

If this is understood literally it presents a problem. This text is a challenge that takes the attributes of Allah (swt) based upon their apparent meaning.

We take into account other places where this is mentioned:

“Everyone upon the earth will perish. And there will remain the Face of your Lord, Owner of Majesty and Honor.” (Holy Qur’an 55:26-27)

We understand this to be that every single being will perish and their lives will be short. Whereas Allah (swt) is Ever-Living.

This text cited above brings us to the next point.

The next section we will bring forth proof text that can be used by Jahm bin Safwan and Ibn Al Qayyim as well as the Ash’ari.

“As for those who were destined to be wretched, they will be in the Fire. For them therein is violent exhaling and inhaling. They will be abiding therein as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except what your Lord should will. Indeed, your Lord is an effecter of what He intends. And as for those who were destined to be prosperous, they will be in Paradise, abiding therein as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except what your Lord should will – a bestowal uninterrupted.” (Holy Qur’an 11:106-108)

For Jahm bin Safwan and Ibn Al Qayyim. They are focused on the part that says, “They will be abiding therein as long as the heavens and the earth endure.” So the heaven and hellfire are conditional upon the existence of heaven and earth.

However, that very verse can be used to demolish their view. It says, “a bestowal uninterrupted.” Certainly, it would be interrupted if it was contingent upon the endurance of heaven and earth. Unless we are not talking about the heaven and the earth that you and I know.

“On the Day when the earth shall be changed into another earth, as shall be the heavens, they will all appear before God, the One, the Most Supreme.” (Holy Qur’an 14:48)

So this deals with Jahm bin Safwan and Ibn Al Qayyim. However, what about the Ash’ari who also cite the above text in conjunction with the following verse:

“And the Day when He will gather them together and say, “O company of jinn, you have misled many of mankind.” And their allies among mankind will say, “Our Lord, some of us made use of others, and we have now reached our term, which you appointed for us.” He will say, “The Fire is your residence, wherein you will abide eternally, except for what Allah wills. Indeed, your Lord is Wise and Knowing.” (Holy Qur’an 6:128)

So at 11:108 above and in 6:128 they focus on the phrase: “Except for what Allah wills.

“In any case the have not argued from any text which means what they claim. They have only presented some interpretations which can be opposed by what invalidates them. And matters of the faith-as I said above-must rely upon the firm text.”

“We would have invented against Allah a lie if we returned to your religion after Allah had saved us from it. And it is not for us to return to it except what Allah wills. Our Lord has encompassed all things in knowledge. Upon Allah we have relied. Our Lord, decide between us and our people in truth, and You are the best of those who give decision.” (Holy Qur’an 7:89)

We can see the phrase: ‘Except what Allah wills‘ above. Does anyone think for a moment that is the will of Allah (swt) that people that people leave Islam for their previous religion? Does anyone think, ‘Well you know there maybe exceptions were Allah wants people to leave Islam and practice Shirk again!‘. It is an absolutely ridiculous idea.

“The response to this is that exception does not denote the ending (of the punishment). Because exception by the Will of Allah comes in the Word of Allah to emphasize that what is reported happens by His Will (not otherwise). If he wills the opposite of that, it will be so. That is like in His saying, Exalted is He: “By degrees shall We teach you, so you shall not forget, except what Allah wills(Holy Qur’an 87:6-7) With the assurance that the Prophet does not forget anything of what Allah (swt) revealed or taught him.”- -Shaykh Ahmed Al Khalili

“By degrees shall We teach you, so you shall not forget except as Allah wills” (Holy Quran 87:6-7)

The meaning is that the exception here is to emphasize the negation.

Another example:

Certainly has Allah showed to His Messenger the vision in truth. You will surely enter al-Masjid al-Haram, if Allah wills, in safety, with your heads shaved and hair shortened, not fearing anyone. He knew what you did not know and has arranged before that a conquest near at hand.” (Holy Qur’an 48:27)

“And those who followed shall say: Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire.” (Holy Qur’an 2:167)

“And as for those who disbelieve, for them is the fire of hell; it shall not be finished with them entirely so that they should die, nor shall the chastisement thereof be lightened to them: even thus do We retribute every ungrateful one.” (Holy Qur’an 35:36)

“And as for those who transgress, their abode is the fire; whenever they desire to go forth from it they shall be brought back into it, and it will be said to them: Taste the chastisement of the fire which you called a lie.” (Holy Qur’an 32:20)

“They would desire to go forth from the fire, and they shall not go forth from it, and they shall have a lasting punishment.” (Holy Qur’an 5:37)

“Surely as for those who reject Our communications and turn away from them haughtily, the doors of heaven shall not be opened for them, nor shall they enter the garden until the camel pass through the eye of the needle; and thus do We reward the guilty.” (Holy Qur’an 7:40)


These text are sufficient to prove that ‘Except As Allah wills‘ -that Allah (swt) has not willed for them nothing except enduring punishment.

The ‘will of Allah‘ in the verses above are undefined not defined. The verses that declare permanence of punishment is clear, there is no uncertainty as to what they denote.

Matters of aqidah have to be derived from the explicit text and not ambiguous evidence.

As for the Ash’ari we say to them there is nothing in those verses that indicate differentiation between the muwahhid disobedient and the others. Rather, those verses are about the warning of ALL the people of the fire.

The Ash’ari will also use as an argument:

“Perhaps will wish those who disbelieved, if they had been those-who-submit/Muslims.” (Holy Qur’an 15:2)

Their argument is that those people will so wish to be Muslims when they see the disobedient Muslims getting out of the fire, whereas they still remain in it. That is an interpretation not supported by the wording of the verse, and there is no evidence for it from anywhere else.

There is no scope to argue from what is unclear.

“Indeed, Hell has been lying in wait For the transgressors, a place of return, In which they will remain for ages. They will not taste therein any coolness or drink. Except for scalding water and foul purulence -An appropriate recompense. Indeed, they were not expecting an account. And denied Our verses with emphatic denial. But all the things We have enumerated in writing. “So taste [the penalty], and never will We increase you except in torment.” (Holy Qur’an 78:21-30)

Comment:

Also, if the Ash’ari were to apply consistent hermeneutic principles their understanding invalidates the understanding of surah 78 because it necessarily entails saying the same about the mushrikin, that they will come out of hell, and saying that there is a term (an end) to the blessings of Paradise.

That is in regard to the Holy Qur’an. If the Holy Qur’an is not sufficient for anyone to draw their theological conclusions from than let that be known.

Arguments from the Sunnah.

They (the Ash’ari)rely on narrations that speak of release from the fire yet there are narrations that speak of dwelling permanently in the fire. We can give those upon request. We take the text of that which conforms to the strongest evidence, the Holy Qur’an and not what opposes it.

“Abrogation is never permitted in the reports of the Law-Maker because His Knowledge is not refreshed and He is not ignorant of anything that happens, and He does not reveal but the truth.”-Shaykh Ahmed Al Khalili

Ash’ari rational arguments:

As for their rational argument: that is that, if the muwahhid disobedient are equal to the muhsrikin in dwelling permanently, then there will be no effect of the word of tawhid, and no advantage from pious actions.

The answer to this is that they, though equal in permanence are not equal in punishment in the same way as the righteous will not be equal in the reward, rather they will differ in according to their actions. The fire has stages as the garden has grades.

Philosophical objections:

Allah’s actions are not bound by systems and world views decided by human reason, nor are they to be related to norms derived from human imagination.

“He cannot be questioned concerning what He does and they shall be questioned.” (Holy Qu’ran 21:23)

We must believe that our limited intellects are too disabled, wearied, feeble, and powerless to encompass His wise purpose in His actions, or to penetrate His secrets in His creation: ‘you are not given of the knowledge but little” (Holy Quran 17:85)

Our duty is only to surrender to what Allah (swt) informs us about. Our certainty that Allah, Exalted is He, does not speak but the truth, just as He does not command but to the truth:
“Who is truer in speaking than Allah?” (Holy Quran 4:122)

Personally dear reader I am not comfortable with such a belief. However, why should I be comfortable with it? I am however convinced of the veracity of Islam and the truth of the Holy Qur’an. The truth does not care about my sentiments. I am to submit to the truth and the evidence and what I want to be true.

All I can do is my level best. All I can hope for you is that the reader will be impacted by what is presented here in a positive way.

As the Sufi poet Rabia Basri is recorded to have said: “O my Lord if I worship you from fear of hell, burn me in hell. If I worship you from hope of Paradise, bar me from its gates.
But if I worship you for yourself alone, grant me then the beauty of your Face.”

Source: (Women in Praise of the Sacred (HarperCollins Publishers Inc, 1994)

One can admire such longing and desire but it must be realized that such a statement was uttered by a person who never tasted the flames of hellfire. As is the case paradise should be sufficient for her, you and me.

May Allah (swt) grant you the reader, all Muslims who truly repent and all truth seekers everlasting paradise. Amin!

“This because they say: “The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days.” What will happen to their belief when We bring them together on the Inevitable Day when every soul will be justly recompensed for its deeds?” For their forgeries deceive them as to their own religion.” (Holy Qur’an 3:24)

13 Comments

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13 responses to “Proof from the Ibadi school that the punishment of hellfire is ever lasting.

  1. 'Abdullah

    Salaam.

    Regarding the Ayat 3:24 and 2:81 you posted, then the people being rebuked are christian and jewish kuffar. No Ash’ari disputes they’ll be in hell eternally, so no Ashari/Sunni belief is being rebuked here.

    I disagree that there’s an ” over-emphasis on the Love of Allah (swt).” As you put it. It’s also difficult to do when Allah ’azza wa jall repeatedly reminds us of His Mercy, Love, Blessings, Paradise etc.,

    You mentioned the number of times fire was mentioned, now compare with the number of times Jannah was mentioned(147), the words and adjectives for forgiveness and ghafūr etc over 150 times, Mercy(rHm) over two hundred etc.

    Regarding your example of christian evangelics then I’m not sure what point you were making, perhaps you could elaborate.

    ““This objection is rejected in that, on the basis of this opinion of theirs, they must then say that the committers of fornication, those who do the deed of the people of Lut, the consumers of usury, the killers of souls without right, those who prevent the payment of zakah, and the rest of the people who commit major sins other than shirk….”

    I wonder, can’t the same be said about tawbah? I mean, you believe that someone can ”simply” repent for any of those major sins, so how is that not more of a license to commit sin?

    I also made an earlier comment about suicide. I wonder how suicide became the worst sin and the only sin not forgivable? So killing other people is less serious than killing yourself?

    “The idea of hellfire being some temporary stay is certainly Jewish penetration into Islamic thought.”

    I’ve heard a christian scholar make the claim that the entire concept of major sins dooming you to hell was due to penetration of the catholic ideas of venial and mortal sins. I reject both notions personally. Either way the idea that jewish kuffar will stay in hell 12 weeks is not an Islamic thought.

    “Killing is a major sin (less than shirk) but still deserving of everlasting hellfire.

    Don’t you believe tawbah can be accepted from a murderer/killer? This ties in with the point above I suppose.

    “That is in regard to the Holy Qur’an. If the Holy Qur’an is not sufficient for anyone to draw their theological conclusions from than let that be known.

    Well the Sunni theological conclusion is also based on taking into account the verses and hadiths emphasizing the Mercy of al-Rahmaan, verses like 4:48 saying that Allah forgives what is beneath shirk, verses like the one saying that even believers can be found in battle among each other, forgiveness, shafaa’ah etc. Most or all of the verses you posted also clearly mentions disbelievers(which you don’t according to Sunnism become through a major sin) and idolators .

    • Salaam to those who follow the guidance from their Lord,

      “Regarding the Ayat 3:24 and 2:81 you posted, then the people being rebuked are christian and jewish kuffar. No Ash’ari disputes they’ll be in hell eternally, so no Ashari/Sunni belief is being rebuked here.”

      Indeed a belief that is held common among the Jews and the Ash’ari Sunni is being clearly rebuked here. It is very clear. Noted as well is the reality of eternal hellfire contrasted with the notion of a short time in hell.

      ” disagree that there’s an ” over-emphasis on the Love of Allah (swt).” As you put it. It’s also difficult to do when Allah ’azza wa jall repeatedly reminds us of His Mercy, Love, Blessings, Paradise etc.,.”

      This is subjective so not much to add here. You have your experience with what you see and I have mine.

      “You mentioned the number of times fire was mentioned, now compare with the number of times Jannah was mentioned(147), the words and adjectives for forgiveness and ghafūr etc over 150 times, Mercy(rHm) over two hundred etc.”

      Absolutely! How merciful and forgiving is Allah (swt) and so how obstinate is the rebellion of those who do not seek repentance! How dreadful is their end.

      “I also made an earlier comment about suicide. I wonder how suicide became the worst sin and the only sin not forgivable? So killing other people is less serious than killing yourself?” -This has been answered to you in the other article.

      With due respect Abdullah you seem to post questions as you do in the article on ‘Seeing Allah’ and many others and when responses are given to you you do not come back.

      I am going to assume because they answer your questions. Allah (swt) knows best.

      “Regarding your example of christian evangelics then I’m not sure what point you were making, perhaps you could elaborate.”

      Some people will understand exactly what I mean and some people will not. So if you do not than I’ll leave it for those who get the point. No worries.

      “I’ve heard a christian scholar make the claim that the entire concept of major sins dooming you to hell was due to penetration of the catholic ideas of venial and mortal sins. I reject both notions personally. Either way the idea that jewish kuffar will stay in hell 12 weeks is not an Islamic thought..”

      Yet interestingly in the Holy Qur’an we do not see any where Jews or Christians being publicly rebuked for a belief that major sins will put them in hell. We so however see them rebuked for a belief that they carry in common with Ash’ari “hell fire will touch us save for a few days.”

      “I wonder, can’t the same be said about tawbah? I mean, you believe that someone can ”simply” repent for any of those major sins, so how is that not more of a license to commit sin?” That is an argument that Christians make. ‘Allah just winks at sin’ Authubillah! Far be it to ascribe to Allah (swt) as such!

      I differ with your thought about this obviously. I believe its evident that between the two of us (Ibadi) and you (Ashari) that we have the strong deterrent against suicide bombers.

      We say they commit suicide they go to hell without reprieve or escape. You say that you condemn them in this life but in the end the shaafat or the shahadah or even a sincere ‘la ilaha il law lah’ is enough for them.

      Hardly a deterrent.

      This is why the matter is really in our hands its what our own souls have wrought that deserves Allah’s just wrath.

      Its not simply about repentance. If you seen two children fight and you told the one who started to apologize and he gave a half hearted ‘sorry’ is that sincere?

      If you persist in your sins in particular the same over and over how sincere are you?

      So I believe that a teaching that says you need to sincerely repent and turn not back to that sin and know that at any moment in your life your soul can be snatched and eternal hellfire awaits you is certainly more effective than saying,

      Well you can sin , you shouldn’t but if you do its ok because if you die while in sin and you didn’t repent you’ll go to hell for a while (ala the jewish belief) and than enter paradise.

      Even though we don’t have the following from your side.
      1) A single verse that says mumin will enter the hell fire.
      2) A single verse that says sinners will come out of hellfire.
      3) A single verse that says the unrepentant sinner will enter heaven.

      “Killing is a major sin (less than shirk) but still deserving of everlasting hellfire.

      Don’t you believe tawbah can be accepted from a murderer/killer? This ties in with the point above I suppose.”

      Of course, but this is to anticipate and counter the claim of the Ash’ari about the verse concerning killing a believer intentionally. You should see the acrobatics employed by the Ash’ari to deal with that one!

      It only means non-muslims not muslims!
      The point is to show that evil in the example of killing if you do not make amends for it, rectify it before you die, and you go on doing it with the belief (well I know its wrong) but I will do it than you can only expect to taste the flames of hellfire without end.

      “Well the Sunni theological conclusion is also based on taking into account the verses and hadiths emphasizing the Mercy of al-Rahmaan”

      And here you are given a chance to prove these claims. Yet only one ayat is quoted 4:48.

      So now you have to ask yourself. If a Muslim does shirk (even hidden shirk) which according some reports the Blessed Messenger (saw) warned about than will they go to hell without repenting?

      “Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, “Now have I repented indeed;” nor of those who die rejecting Faith: for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.” (Holy Qur’an 4: 18)

      “Most or all of the verses you posted also clearly mentions disbelievers(which you don’t according to Sunnism become through a major sin) and idolators .”

      Well what is it? MOST OR ALL? I am not trying to press you but I am sure you will agree in matters of theology we should be circumspect.

      We already refuted the other point in the article on Kufr Ni’ama.

      I hope this was helpful.

      Whom ever Allah (swt) guides no one can misguide them Whom ever Allah (swt) allows to stray no can guide them.

      All praise belongs to Allah.

  2. Abdullah

    “With due respect Abdullah you seem to post questions as you do in the article on ‘Seeing Allah’ and many others and when responses are given to you you do not come back.

    Except you never gave responses in that article. You initially wrote a post saying you’d respond later, which you never did. Instead you asked some irrelevant questions that did not address or answer any point I raised. Nevertheless I did make a post answering them but it did not appear, I’m not sure why.

    “Indeed a belief that is held common among the Jews and the Ash’ari Sunni is being clearly rebuked here. It is very clear. Noted as well is the reality of eternal hellfire contrasted with the notion of a short time in hell.”

    Except the eternal punishment confirmed in the ayat is specifically said to be about JEWISH KUFFAR. Not Muslims.

    “That is an argument that Christians make. ‘Allah just winks at sin’ Authubillah! Far be it to ascribe to Allah (swt) as such!”

    Ok so what’s your answer then?

    “I believe its evident that between the two of us (Ibadi) and you (Ashari) that we have the strong deterrent against suicide bombers.”

    You’re still going on about suicide bombing which is a different discussion.

    “Hardly a deterrent.

    What’s more deterring, stoning to death for adultery or lashing? And why doesn’t tawbah invalidate it being a deterrent?

    Anyway, how is this not a philosophical objection of which you said:

    “Allah’s actions are not bound by systems and world views decided by human reason, nor are they to be related to norms derived from human imagination.
    “He cannot be questioned concerning what He does and they shall be questioned.” (Holy Qu’ran 21:23)

    We must believe that our limited intellects are too disabled, wearied, feeble, and powerless to encompass His wise purpose in His actions, or to penetrate His secrets in His creation: ‘you are not given of the knowledge but little” (Holy Quran 17:85)”

    Trying to determine the truth by speculating on what’s more deterring?

    “Yet interestingly in the Holy Qur’an we do not see any where Jews or Christians being publicly rebuked for a belief that major sins will put them in hell.”

    They’re publicly rebuked and doomed to hell already for being kuffar.

    “Of course”

    So you do believe that a Murderer can be accepted into Paradise?

    “And here you are given a chance to prove these claims. Yet only one ayat is quoted 4:48.”

    Eh I’m not really here to prove or cite the entire Sunni theological case. It would make more sense for someone to look up what has already been written on that over centuries. I’m just interacting with your article and the arguments you bring forth.

    “Well what is it? MOST OR ALL? I am not trying to press you but I am sure you will agree in matters of theology we should be circumspect.

    Most. But the rest don’t say that a major sinner becomes a kafir, so there’s no contradiction between them being subject to the Mercy of Allah and shafaa’ah as long as they are Believers.

    “Even though we don’t have the following from your side.
    1) A single verse that says mumin will enter the hell fire.
    2) A single verse that says sinners will come out of hellfire.
    3) A single verse that says the unrepentant sinner will enter heaven.

    Do you hold me to the “prima Quran” view or Sunnism?

    • “Except you never gave responses in that article. You initially wrote a post saying you’d respond later, which you never did. Instead you asked some irrelevant questions that did not address or answer any point I raised. Nevertheless I did make a post answering them but it did not appear, I’m not sure why.”

      You made a post initially and for some reason you deleted it. If you recall I posted on it I saw it in my notifications and inquired. I asked you to elaborate some of your points so I can best respond to you. Which you have not until this day and Allah (swt) is the seeing and the knowing.

      And you know from links provide to other people, their sites, from little known to well known that I will not censor anyone (except the people using filthy language).

      So I am still waiting for the response to what is posted there. Thank you.

      “Except the eternal punishment confirmed in the ayat is specifically said to be about JEWISH KUFFAR. Not Muslims.”

      Did you not read the following verse its right there. ” Yes, WHOEVER earns evil and his sin has encompassed him – those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.” (Holy Qur’an 2:81)

      whoever (Arabic man) – Allah (swt) has taken the opportunity to be all inclusive.

      “Ok so what’s your answer then?”

      Wallah did you read my response? You were answered.

      “You’re still going on about suicide bombing which is a different discussion.”

      You brought up suicide not a specific type of suicide correct? So it is relevant and I understand why you don’t want to interact with it.

      “What’s more deterring, stoning to death for adultery or lashing? And why doesn’t tawbah invalidate it being a deterrent?”

      I trust what Allah (swt) to be revealed to be sufficient because maybe some people doubt the capability of Allah (swt) and maybe some people doubt the wisdom of Allah (swt) but I do not.

      “Anyway, how is this not a philosophical objection of which you said….Trying to determine the truth by speculating on what’s more deterring?”

      Using the wisdom of what Allah (swt) has revealed to us is not speculation.

      If Jehovah’s Witness say there is no hellfire and we simply get eliminated and we say as what Allah (swt) has revealed that there is a hellfire and it is eternal and this is a more effective deterrent that is certainly not speculation.

      What I proposed to you was rhetorical. I already know the answer based upon revealed revelation.

      Narrated Anas bin Malik:

      “Once Mu’adh was along with Allah’s Apostle as a companion rider. Allah’s Apostle said, “O Mu’adh bin Jabal.” Mu’adh replied, “Labbaik and Sa’daik. O Allah’s Apostle!” Again the Prophet said, “O Mu’adh!” Mu’adh said thrice, “Labbaik and Sa’daik, O Allah’s Apostle!” Allah’s Apostle said, “There is none who testifies sincerely that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is his Apostle, except that Allah, will save him from the Hell-fire.” Mu’adh said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Should I not inform the people about it so that they may have glad tidings?” He replied, “WHEN THE PEOPLE HEAR ABOUT IT, THEY WILL SOLELY DEPEND UPON IT.” Then Mu’adh narrated the above-mentioned Hadith just before his death, being afraid of committing sin (by not telling the knowledge). (volume 1, Book 3, Number 130 Bukhari)

      Ponder it Abdullah.

      “So you do believe that a Murderer can be accepted into Paradise?” –

      It has already been established that unrepentant sinners do not enter paradise.

      “Most. But the rest don’t say that a major sinner becomes a kafir, so there’s no contradiction between them being subject to the Mercy of Allah and shafaa’ah as long as they are Believers.”

      Again we have already established in another article that the unrepentant sinner is kufr ni’amah.

      “Do you hold me to the “prima Quran” view or Sunnism?”

      Of course as you mentioned you will have to bring in the hadith corpus which tremendously helps your case. That is a given. But as mentioned we can

      Even though we don’t have the following from your side.
      1) A single verse that says mumin will enter the hell fire.
      2) A single verse that says sinners will come out of hellfire.
      3) A single verse that says the unrepentant sinner will enter heaven.

      Thank you for your transparency. Though you and I do not agree on many things I appreciate your willingness (for the most part) to comment and interact with the material here.

      I hope this is helpful to you. Al hamdulillah.

      • 'Abdullah

        “You made a post initially and for some reason you deleted it.

        Not intentionally, so some error occurred. I don’t even see an option to delete my comments.

        “I asked you to elaborate some of your points so I can best respond to you. Which you have not until this day and Allah (swt) is the seeing and the knowing.”

        Except the questions you asked were irrelevant to my points, and any reply from you would not really depend on my answers. Just seems like a way to escape or something if you ask me.

        You asked:
        “what you’d understanding of the word “idraak” is?”

        this is not relevant. You’re making the argument against the Sunni position, so you should ideally know what the Sunni understanding is and address it.

        “Do you feel that the following text:
        “Definitive Proof In The Study of Theology” by Muhammad Salih Farfur and

        “The Attributes of Allah” by Abd Al-Rahman Ibn Al Jawzi are reliable text?

        Not relevant to any point I made either. However with that said, I can still answer: the first text I’m not familiar with, and as for the second then al-Jawzi was not an Ash’ari so I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s a reliable text when it comes to representing the Ash’ari position.

        How did this elaboration help you? I don’t know honestly how it ties in with my post.

        “And you know from links provide to other people, their sites, from little known to well known that I will not censor anyone (except the people using filthy language).”

        Yeah I don’t disagree. I haven’t seen anything that would indicate you censoring anyone.

        “Did you not read the following verse its right there. ” Yes, WHOEVER earns evil and his sin has encompassed him – those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally.” (Holy Qur’an 2:81)”

        Yes but it comes down to the interpretation of “earns evil and his sin has encompassed him”.

        ““You brought up suicide not a specific type of suicide correct?”

        I brought up suicide, not killing others. It’s like making rape out to be an example of zina. Suicide bombing is more a type of attack on other people rather than a method of suicide per se. Either way I did make it clear that I was talking about killing yourself specifically, in contrast to other people, so suicide bombing would therefore be excluded. My entire point was that the Ibadhi position makes suicide out to be worse than murder of other people, since the latter you can repent from, and not from the former.

        “It has already been established that unrepentant sinners do not enter paradise.

        Yes but a murderer can repent. Which means that you accept the Ayat but you also believe that not everyone who has killed a believer will be in hell for eternity, since the repentants are excluded. Likewise the Sunnis exclude people. See my point?

        “1) A single verse that says mumin will enter the hell fire.”

        Do you have a single verse that says that Muslims will enter hell fire? Thereby supporting your view that Muslims(kafir ni’mah) will enter hell fire?

      • I think for the first part of this it would be great if you could post it along with your explanation of the questions I posed to you here: https://primaquran.wordpress.com/2019/09/09/will-we-see-allah-swt-on-the-day-of-judgement/

        Because that is the thread we started there.

        “Except the questions you asked were irrelevant to my points, and any reply from you would not really depend on my answers. Just seems like a way to escape or something if you ask me.”

        I think you know me better than that. There is not an e-mail I haven’t replied to, a tweet or twitter inbox I haven’t replied to, or any inquiry made directly to me on Facebook and anyone who has a claim counter to this , ahlan wa sahlan.

        I have asked you to clarify some points because I don’t want to be arrogant and assume your position. I had two objectives.
        1) Have you clarify your understanding of the terms to better interact with you in that conversation.
        2) Help the readers who may not understand the Ash’ari/Athari position (as its shared among you both).

        “Yes but it comes down to the interpretation of “earns evil and his sin has encompassed him”.

        And so only Jews are capable of ‘[earning sins and having them encompass them?’ The text says ‘whoever’ arabic (am)

        I honestly believe at this juncture you are clutching at straws.
        It is a mighty text against the idea that held by the Ash’ari and those particular Jews that hell is short period of time.

        “I brought up suicide, not killing others. It’s like making rape out to be an example of zina. Suicide bombing is more a type of attack on other people rather than a method of suicide per se. Either way I did make it clear that I was talking about killing yourself specifically, in contrast to other people, so suicide bombing would therefore be excluded. My entire point was that the Ibadhi position makes suicide out to be worse than murder of other people, since the latter you can repent from, and not from the former.”

        Wait are you going to seriously contend that rape is NOT A FORM OF ZINA?

        “Suicide bombing is more a type of attack on other people rather than a method of suicide per se.”

        I am thankful we are having this open discussion and I appreciate this. Al hamdulillah. It’s good because it allows truth seekers to understand our positions.

        It is laid out before everyone to read and reflect on. So there you have it readers.

        A man goes with the intention of killing himself (suicide) as well as killing others (homicide)

        “Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely.” (Holy Qur’an 5:32)

        That is simply for one soul x (the whole of mankind)

        and now these 10 or 50 or 100 or 2997 your position is that such people can be forgiven.

        Ours is that they will burn in hellfire forever without end.

        “My entire point was that the Ibadhi position makes suicide out to be worse than murder of other people, since the latter you can repent from, and not from the former.”

        The hadith that I gave you about suicide gets conveniently ignored. Where is the repentance there?

        Abu Hurayrah : The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever.”
        Sahih Al-Bukhari – Book 71 Hadith 670

        Narrated Abu Hurayrah : The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire.”
        Sahih Al-Bukhari – Book 23 Hadith 446

        Are going to now argue that the word ‘whoever’ only refers to the Jews who commit suicide?

        I have told you twice and now this will be thrice. In Islam the worse sin that you can repent from is shirk.

        If you commit suicide how can you repent you tell us? So according to that logic the Ash’ari believe that suicide is worse than shirk because those ahadith give no indication you can repent from it.

        “Yes but a murderer can repent. Which means that you accept the Ayat but you also believe that not everyone who has killed a believer will be in hell for eternity, since the repentants are excluded. Likewise the Sunnis exclude people. See my point?”

        You point is that those who do not repent will go to heaven that is not our point it is not the same.

        “Do you have a single verse that says that Muslims will enter hell fire? Thereby supporting your view that Muslims(kafir ni’mah) will enter hell fire?”

        First of all you yourself believe Muslims will enter the hellfire, our difference is you believe like those Jews whom Allah (swt) publicly called out that it will be for ‘a short while’ -where as we follow what Allah (swt) contrasted that with khalidina fiha abadan (forever).

        Also that verse says, ‘whoever’ (am) that will include…

        “And of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil deeds until death faces one of them and he says: “Now I repent;” nor of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful torment.” (Holy Qur’an 4:18)

        Yes the whole of this article: https://primaquran.wordpress.com/2019/11/15/the-position-of-the-ibadi-school-on-muslims-who-commit-major-sins/

        You were also just given two ahadith that I am going to assume that you hold reliable.

        So now are you going to argue that the ‘whoever’ in that hadith is a reference to Jews only?

        What is the Ash’ari position on a Muslim who commits suicide? To give you some wiggle room let’s leave out suicide bombing for the sake of argument.

        What is the Ash’ari position on a Muslim who commit suicide?

        Before rushing to comment can you perhaps get some daleel (evidences) for the sake of those reading these exchanges?

        Hopefully this was helpful to you. All praise belongs to Allah (swt).

      • 'Abdullah

        “I think for the first part of this it would be great if you could post it along with your explanation of the questions I posed to you here: ”

        Easily done.

        “There is not an e-mail I haven’t replied to, a tweet or twitter inbox I haven’t replied to, or any inquiry made directly to me on Facebook and anyone who has a claim counter to this , ahlan wa sahlan.”

        Well you replied alright, but you didn’t really respond to anything. Those questions of yours were not a response to anything.

        “And so only Jews are capable of ‘[earning sins and having them encompass them?’ ”

        No, but rather that having sin encompassing you is being a kaafir

        “It is a mighty text against the idea that held by the Ash’ari and those particular Jews that hell is short period of time.”

        It’s a mighty text against those who hold that jews will be in hell a short period of time yes.

        “A man goes with the intention of killing himself (suicide) as well as killing others (homicide)

        So you’re still refusing the address the issue of suicide? Ok.

        “The hadith that I gave you about suicide gets conveniently ignored. Where is the repentance there?”

        The repentance can be in other hadiths no problem, that doesn’t heart the Sunni position.

        “I have told you twice and now this will be thrice. In Islam the worse sin that you can repent from is shirk.

        Yes but not the worst sin that can be forgiven, that’s suicide apparently. I’d say suicide becomes the worst sin then, if even murder and shirk can be forgiven.

        “So according to that logic the Ash’ari believe that suicide is worse than shirk because those ahadith give no indication you can repent from it.”

        Asharis believe they can be forgiven nonetheless as per other hadiths.

        “You point is that those who do not repent will go to heaven that is not our point it is not the same.

        Both our points are that murders can be forgiven. So we agree on that. That means not every murderer will be in hell forever. We just differ on specifics, but note that tawbah is not mentioned in that verse either. Ie, you exclude the repentant murderer, yet that’s not in the verse.

        “First of all you yourself believe Muslims will enter the hellfire….”

        So? Do you have a verse? Or is the Prima Quran position to simply feel satisfied just demanding that from others?

        “You were also just given two ahadith that I am going to assume that you hold reliable.

        Already answered: Asharis don’t limit themselves to two hadiths.

        “What is the Ash’ari position on a Muslim who commits suicide?”

        They can be forgiven it’s up to Allah.

      • Bismillah,
        This will be my last response to you on this particular topic as I believe all the points have been made crystal clear.

        It is the same if I was to speak to a Christian or an Atheist , I only go so far to continue on when you feel that your points have been made and simply repeating the points is ego.

        I am not approving your post on this topic. I believe you have been given enough time to make your points. Perhaps another Ash’ari can come with something more convincing.

        “No, but rather that having sin encompassing you is being a kaafir”

        Mash’Allah! When I read that ‘Abdullah you had no idea I really wanted to hug and say welcome home brother!

        That’s exactly the point!

        Let me post what you said again mash’Allah

        “No, but rather that having sin encompassing you is being a kaafir”

        Mash’Allah how Allah (swt) manifest the truth the mouth of one’s interlocutor!

        “It’s a mighty text against those who hold that jews will be in hell a short period of time yes.”

        So the belief is not wrong if Hindus hold it ? The belief is not wrong if Christians hold it? The belief is not wrong if Atheist hold it?

        It’s only acceptable for the Ash’ari to hold to it. la hawla wala quwwata illa billah
        See how they judge?

        “So you’re still refusing the address the issue of suicide? Ok.”

        I have addressed the issue of suicide again and again and again and now you are lying for everyone to see. Fear Allah ‘Abdullah.

        “The repentance can be in other hadiths no problem, that doesn’t heart the Sunni position.”

        Which for anyone reading this in the previous post I did ask ‘Abdullah to ponder this over. To not be so hasty to what to reply to me.

        Don’t feel you have to immediately reply to me the very next day. To come with some proof text.
        But noooo.. No proof text.
        I was charitable to you ‘Abdullah and I said I’ll leave aside the issue of suicide bombing as you were obviously not comfortable with it.
        Than I bring you hadith and yet you didn’t give one hadith of the entire corpus that says you can repent after suicide. Which again shows what ever boat you imagine the Ibadi to be in, you, the Ash’ari are in.
        So even I was charitable a third time and said, “Look ‘Abdullah more wiggle room you don’t want to bring hadith that says you can repent after suicide I would even be willing to go so far as to say to ‘Abdullah show us ONE Ash’ari scholar who says that after suicide there is repentance.”
        Only to be ignored. I can’t keep being charitable ‘Abdullah. I won’t give my energy to that.
        Making even more easier on you asking you not proof from the Qur’an or even the hadith but from a scholar (of your choosing)….

        I have to give you this much rope because with due respect you cannot even furnish a hadith that says you can repent after suicide. That’s the whole point on why it’s so heinous and such an evil end.

        Did you know that the Blessed Messenger (saw) refused to pray over people who committed suicide?

        ”Yes but not the worst sin that can be FORGIVEN, that’s suicide apparently. I’d say suicide becomes the worst sin then, if even murder and shirk can be forgiven.”

        “Yes but not the worst sin that can be FORGIVEN, that’s suicide apparently.”

        Which is why this thread is done and yes I will tell you this ‘Abdullah I am not approving your messages on this thread.You either deliberately misrepresent us or simply do not read what I reply. I think you have had sufficient time to establish your points and I am not giving it anymore energy.

        “Yes but not the worst sin that can be FORGIVEN, that’s suicide apparently. ” –

        You now go and ponder that. And the readers can see that the Ibadi position is that the worse sin that you can commit that YOU CAN be forgiven for is shirk.

        “Asharis believe they can be forgiven nonetheless as per other hadiths.”

        Which you had an opportunity to bring into the discussion and you didn’t.

        My guess is as you ‘hit on suicide as the first thing’ as well as the other person who commented (don’t know if your the same person different user names) tried to be clever and give you false reasoning and arguments.

        So I would tell your teachers I’ll assume are (deobandi, brelvi,) as they simply have the worse defense of aqidah I have ever seen, gave you something along these lines:

        1) I am some how supposed to say, “Hey your right suicide is worse than committing shirk because you can repent from shirk but not suicide.”

        2) Once I make that statement than the ‘ah ha moment’ comes… shirk is the worse sin and so our supposed position on suicide would be against that.

        But It didn’t work.
        It didn’t work for a number of reasons.
        1)I told you so many times that shirk is the biggest sin you can be forgiven from.
        2)If you commit suicide how do you repent? You didn’t answer at all. Instead you kept saying and insisting ‘no suicide is worse than shirk’. Tell your people to give you better arguments my guy.
        3)Show you that we are stronger than you on suicide bombing against people. Which you were very uncomfortable with so I gave you wiggle room o.k let’s leave out suicide bombing.
        4) I showed you hadith in the ‘sahih’ of Bukhari that the Blessed Messenger (saw) said those who commit suicide would be committing the same act ‘khalida fiha abadan’ -forever.
        5) You didn’t bring us any hadith showing you can repent after suicide.
        6) You didn’t even tell us that this hadith was abrogated by another hadith.
        7) To your credit you didn’t try to limit the term ‘whoever’ (Arabic am) to Non-Muslims only.

        The other equally tragic part of that tactic is you would think that the Ash’ari (if that is what you truly represent) with their history of semantics and acrobatics could have found a way to equate suicide with shirk.

        After all isn’t Allah (swt) the giver of life and death?

        “His is the dominion of the heavens and earth. He gives life and causes death, and He is over all things competent.” (Holy Qur’an 57:2)
        After all when you take your own life are you affirming that Allah alone is the disposer of all affairs? Is the one who alone has the right to take life?
        How do you reason?
        “Both our points are that murders can be forgiven. So we agree on that. That means not every murderer will be in hell forever. We just differ on specifics, but note that tawbah is not mentioned in that verse either. Ie, you exclude the repentant murderer, yet that’s not in the verse.”

        Allah (swt) has made clear what his position is on the matter here:

        “But repentance is not [accepted] of those who [continue to] do evil deeds up until, when death comes to one of them, he says, “Indeed, I have repented now,” or of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment.” (Holy Qur’an 4:18)

        The whole point of bringing up that verse is to clearly demonstrate the use of the understanding:
        1) A sin other than shirk would guarantee hellfire forever, namely murder.

        ““First of all you yourself believe Muslims will enter the hellfire…”

        No, that is your belief not ours. In fact when you asked,

        “Do you have a single that says that Muslims will enter hellfire?”

        I don’t if I should have hugged you or offered you some extra strength coffee or both!!

        I mean YOU DO REALIZE that I AM the ONE who initially asked you:

        1) A SINGLE VERSE THAT SAYS MUMIN WILL ENTER THE HELL FIRE
        2) A single verse that says sinners will come out of hellfire.
        3) A single verse that says the unrepentant sinner will enter heaven.

        Which is exactly our point. Muslims are not going to hellfire. That is your aqidah, not ours.

        I did feel the way that you worded it was quite slippery tho.

        Which can be seen by your statement
        “Thereby supporting your view that MUSLIMS (kafir ni’amah) will enter hell fire?”

        It is simply why this discussion is over. You simply do not read what I write to you.
        1) A SINGLE VERSE THAT SAYS MUMIN WILL ENTER THE HELL FIRE -this was asked of you.
        The beauty of it and again is that Allah (swt) put the truth in your mouth Al hamdulillah, “Where is the single verse that says Muslims (kafir ni’amah) will enter hell fire?”

        Exactly! It that the statement came from you is proof that the Muslim don’t enter the hellfire.

        Again for the readers reading this our view (the Ahl Istqiama) is that in this world there are three types of people:

        1) Mushrik -associate with Allah and ungrateful to Allah (swt).
        2) Mumim -believer
        3) kafir ni’amah -Fasiq -hypocrite, they share with the Mushrik in their kufr and they share with the Muslim in their Islam.

        The afterlife has two types of people for two very different destinations and neither leaves one destination for the other.

        1) The kufar and 2) mumin.

        1) Paradise is for the mumin and it is eternal they don’t come out from it.
        2) Hellfire is for the kufar and it is eternal and they don’t come out from it.

        Being in a state of kufr niamah as was mentioned is not enough to kick you out of Islam because keep in mind most kufr niamah is nifaq and things only between you and Allah (swt).

        Yet, Allah (swt) is Al-Wadud, the loving, the forgiving, the gentle, the kind, the most merciful, and the most compassionate, the forgiver of sins…Repentance is mentioned all throughout the Qur’an. It is mentioned not to despair of Allah’s mercy because of your sins.

        So to ignore all those warnings you certainly deserve your end. Allah (swt) is just and full of wisdom.

        “Already answered: Asharis don’t limit themselves to two hadiths.”

        As we have seen they don’t like Qur’an. There is complete capitulation that they can’t give their position from it. Hadith are shown to them. They don’t like those hadith don’t care to tell us if they are abrogated and they don’t bring a single hadith showing that ‘you can repent after suicide there is still chance to repent after suicide’.

        We give them hadith and they do not provide any hadith that state contrary. Even though the previous post Abdullah was asked to bring hadith bring proofs bring his evidence. Don’t just hastily reply. This isn’t tea time. These are matters of truth. We shouldn’t handle our religion in such a fashion.

        “They can be forgiven it’s up to Allah.”
        Based on what? That is why this type of conversation I cannot continue. Absolutely no proofs furnished from the other side. I mean I guess their strategy is can’t examine what isn’t brought forth.

        Allah (swt) is a witness that I did my best with in my limited capacity and that is all that is expected of me.

        As for the other post on Seeing Allah (swt) your answer again was vague.

        Allah_willing I will get into it in the near future for the benefit of the truth seekers.

        All praise be to Allah (swt).

        “1) A single verse that says mumin will enter the hell fire.
        2) A single verse that says sinners will come out of hellfire.
        3) A single verse that says the unrepentant sinner will enter heaven.

  3. Ameen Muhammad

    @Prima,

    So why does Allah not send people to Jahanam for doing ANY sin? What is your proof to distinguish between major and minor sins?

    • “If you avoid the major sins (kabaira) which you are forbidden, We will remove from you your lesser sins and admit you to a noble entrance into Paradise.” (Holy Qur’an 4:31)

      This verse is conditional. If we do our level best to avoid the major sins than Allah (swt) will remove from us the lesser sins. Allah (swt) forgives sins because he is al-ʿAfūw & al-Ghafūr

      “It is right to hope that Allah will pardon them. For Allah is The one who Effaces, The Ever Forgiving..” (Holy Qur’an 4:99)

      As to why he just doesn’t throw us in hell for any sin you’ll really have to take that up with Sunni ulemah who believe if we didn’t sin at all than Allah (swt) would wipe us out and replace us with those who did sin.

      By the way I denounce that Christ Jesus is the son of God. Do you also denounce this claim of the Christian’s?

    • By the way I’m not answering your question with another question to be cheeky or evasive. I’m just saying when you ask your scholars why did Allah swt create beings that could n would sin to begin with you can get some understanding of your question to me.

      I’m not going to presume to speak for Allah swt we just go but what the revealed text show us.

  4. Ameen Muhammad

    Yes, that’s correct. Allah would replace us with a creation that did sin…provided they repented.

    The God mentioned in the Quran and the correct narrations that he is a Merciful one; balanced, not oppressive. He doesn’t provide an eternity of hell for sins that do not attack his person directly (such as Shirk).

    He won’t chuck his servant into an eternal bliss abyss because of a single error because he is no cosmic tyrant. However, others like to believe in a harsh, totalitarian god – if that is what pleases them, fine, but we do see the effects of this worldview in the Muslim world today and what this black and white mindset whereby does, esp. when they think that fellow Muslims will enter hell eternally.

    Going back to the question, what then is a major and minor sin, how do we distinguish between the two?

    Secondly, if say someone does not hold on to your views i.e. major sins take one to an eternity of hell, then by your admission isn’t this a major sin in and of itself because it’s a mistake in aqeedah?

    • This is the parting of ways between us Ameen Muhammad.

      You are not interested in dialogue and that has become clear to me, just as in your e-mail. You have your mind made up.

      I am not here for tea time or to entertain. I believe in meaningful dialogue and passionate exchanges that are at the very least meaningful.

      “The God mentioned in the Quran and the correct narrations that he is a Merciful one; balanced, not oppressive. He doesn’t provide an eternity of hell for sins that do not attack his person directly (such as Shirk)..”

      You do realize that by your blasphemous standards that the according to many Allah (swt) is not just or fair (authubillah).

      You like to worship the image you want of Allah (swt) where as Muslims we are told to surrender to submit.

      For example you have no problem with the idea of someone going to eternal hellfire for shirk isn’t it?

      “He doesn’t provide an eternity of hell for sins that do not attack his person directly (such as Shirk).”

      Many in today’s world would say eternal hell fire where the skins are exchange for fresh skins is beyond overkill. Do you submit to the judgement of the people or to revealed revelation?

      Who is Ahl ray now?

      “He won’t chuck his servant into an eternal bliss abyss because of a single error because he is no cosmic tyrant. However, others like to believe in a harsh, totalitarian god – if that is what pleases them, fine, but we do see the effects of this worldview in the Muslim world today and what this black and white mindset whereby does, esp. when they think that fellow Muslims will enter hell eternally.”

      First of all your assertion of Allah (swt) as some ‘cosmic tyrant’ authubillah min dhalik! That is why I cannot continue this conversation with you.

      1) your mind is made up.
      2) your filled with emotional rhetoric.
      3) You like ‘Abdullah (unless your the same people different user names) -do not even like to bring any proof text, nothing from the Qur’an, nothing from the Sunnah.

      It’s unfortunate because you were given an opportunity to make your case, and you chose not to.

      The only thing I can say is yes indeed we do see the effects of your theology on the Muslim world.

      Treating hell like a light matter (don’t worry only a few hundred years than voila you get to be in heaven!)

      The idea that you are weak on suicide bombing /people who kill and murder people in the name of this cherished faith tradition. This article speaks volumes.

      https://www.newsweek.com/2017/02/17/oman-sultan-qaboos-terrorism-isis-al-qaeda-548682.html

      “is religious freedom partly explains why the country’s Sunni Muslims, who make up as much as 45 percent of the population, according to some estimates, haven’t been as vulnerable to rhetoric from extremist Sunni groups like ISIS. It might also explain why no court—Omani or foreign—has ever convicted and imprisoned an Omani for a violent attack. No Omanis were involved in the 9/11 attacks and of the 780 people once held prisoner in Guantánamo Bay, not one was from Oman.”

      “Qaboos does not deserve all the credit for this. Oman is the only Arab country with a majority Ibadi Muslim population. Ibadism is a relatively small denomination that is moderate in its teachings. Sunni militants in ISIS or Al-Qaeda would consider them apostates, a sin they would punish by death—making it unlikely that Ibadi Muslims would join extremist groups.”

      and Oman far from being perfect you don’t hear all the nonsense that you do in other nations, may Allah (swt) preserve and protect that nation and it’s people.

      Mufti Menk (salafi) in orientation is invited to speak freely, Adnan Ibrahim-reformist in orientation is invited to speak freely, Hamza Yusuf -Ash’ari in orientation is invited to speak freely.

      “Going back to the question, what then is a major and minor sin, how do we distinguish between the two?” No thank you I can see for you your mind is made up and it’s all about emotionalism.

      “Secondly, if say someone does not hold on to your views i.e. major sins take one to an eternity of hell, then by your admission isn’t this a major sin in and of itself because it’s a mistake in aqeedah?”

      Yes you are right! It has to be I mean right?? That’s the answer you want correct?

      Because even if I give an answer to you it’s not acceptable. My life and my time is precious, I won’t be using it to spin my wheels with you.

      Lastly, I wonder why you won’t deny that Christ Jesus is the son of God. I have my reason for asking that (for those who are readers reading this).

      The other point is what is your big hang up you just said above, ”

      “However, others like to believe in a harsh, totalitarian god – if that is what pleases them, fine,” –

      So can I have my belief or not? Because so far the only intolerance concerning this matter is coming from you.

      If what you believe is true than I and the readers shouldn’t have anything to worry about.

      Either we will go to heaven without account, or we will go to heaven after some questioning or we will go to hell and than after having our sins dumped on Jews and Christians (according to your doctrine) I’ll get to go to heaven.

      I wish you all the best in your future endeavors.

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