“Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is rightly guided.” (Qur’an 16:125)
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The background of the debate that never happened.
Shaykh Bin Baz invited Shaykh Ahmed Khalili to his office and Shaykh Khalili accepted the invitation. Shaykh Ahmed Khalili and a small delegation went into what was described as a small room. There was no courtesy and no decorum shown on behalf of Shaykh Bin Baz. As soon Shaykh Bin Baz got everyone in the room, he started shouting, “You Ibadi are Kafirs! You don’t believe in seeing Allah in the afterlife”. “You believe in the creation of the Qur’an and you must make tawba!” “You must testify that you are mistaken!”
Shaykh Ahmed Khalili remained very calm. He replied, “These issues are very old issues and many of the ulemah have been talking about it.” “Our expectation was to come and discuss how to unite the Ummah, and keep the differences aside, and we should agree on certain terms.”
However, Shaykh Bin Baz insisted, “No, you must confess, and you must repent.”
To which Shaykh Ahmed Khalili said, “You have your justification and we have our justification. So let us call for a general symposium in Mecca and allow all the media, rather it is newspapers, or radio or television, to broadcast this debate.”
“If you think you are right, and you want to tell the whole ummah of your righteous opinion, this will show who is wrong and who is right.” “Even if we are wrong we agree to debate publicly so that everyone will know that we are wrong, and you are right.”
“Allow the Ummah to judge according to the debate and the justifications everybody brings forward.” However, Shaykh Bin Baz did not want to discuss nor debate.
So this prompted Shaykh Ahmed Khalili in the video you are about to see. In the beginning, Shaykh Ahmed Khalili mentioned:
“That these are old disputes that split the Ummah. He asked whose interest it was in bringing up these issues that split the Ummah? However, since Bin Baz started I have to clarify these points. The people of Bin Baz are doing their best to spread their beliefs and, in the process, to make us look like kafirs.”
Thus, Shaykh Ahmed Khalili (May Allah continue to benefit this Ummah by him) found it necessary to clarify the issues. Ultimately, Shaykh Bin Baz backed down.
You can see this student of Bin Baz asking Bin Baz that he had the chance to refute Al Khalili(h) and show that he was upon batil (falsehood) so why did he not take it? Bin Baz replied but what if Khalili (h) has strong evidence then what?
The way the following video is framed it paints a picture as if Bin Baz was the wise one in the situation. As if he was saying: “If I debate him he might have a stronger argument and this will cause the misguidance of many people.”
From our perspective this whole debacle looks like this.
Bin Baz: “Come to the Haqq.”
Shaykh Ahmed: “Ok. Let’ shav ea debate and see who is upon the haqq.”
Bin Baz: ghost…
May Allah (swt) forgive the Ummah. May Allah (swt) guide the Ummah!
If you want to read more articles on the issue of whether or not the Qur’an is created or uncreated, you may wish to see:
https://primaquran.com/2022/10/04/lets-attack-hamza-yusuf-in-ramadan-the-quran-is-created/
https://primaquran.com/2022/10/04/speech-of-allah-is-the-quran-created/
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Ruling on claiming that the Qur’an was created
Question:
“Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal stated in his book [Al-Sunnah]: “The Qur’an is the Words of Allah, not created. So, whoever claims that the Qur’an is created is a Jahmite (a follower of Jahmiyyah, which is a deviant Islamic sect denying some Attributes of Allah, claiming they are ascribed to people and cannot be ascribed to Allah), and a Kafir (disbeliever).” I would like to know from Your Eminence why those who claim that the Qur’an was created are considered Kafirs and judged as such by Imam Ahmad (may Allah be merciful to him)?”
Answer:
“The Qur’an is truly the Word of Allah. It was sent down to our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as a revelation. Allah (Exalted be He) states:
{And if anyone of the Mushrikûn (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh) seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allâh (the Qur’ân)} [Surah at-Tawbah 9:6]
And: {And this is a blessed Book (the Qur’ân) which We have sent down, so follow it and fear Allâh (i.e. do not disobey His Orders), that you may receive mercy (i.e. be saved from the torment of Hell).} [Surah al-An’am 6:155]
And: {And (it is) a Qur’ân which We have divided (into parts), in order that you might recite it to men at intervals. And We have revealed it by stages (in 23 years).} [Surah al-Isra’ 17:106]
There are many Ayahs in this context.
Accordingly, the Qur’an is the Word of Allah that is not created, and whoever says that it is created is a Kafir (disbeliever). The Speech of Allah is one of His Attributes and whoever claims that one of His Attributes is created is a Kafir, because the Attribute expresses the reality of the Self. Moreover, this false claim necessitates likening Allah’s Attributes to those of His creation. Human beings did not speak until Allah created the faculty of speech in them. So whoever claims that the Words of Allah are created likens Allah to His creation – exalted is Allah above what they ascribe to Him. Allah spoke and will continue to speak as He wills. We do not say that He did not speak until He created speech, nor was void of knowledge until He created knowledge. Evidently, the matter is clear for seekers of truth when Allah guides them.
May Allah grant us success. May peace and blessings be upon our Prophet Muhammad, his family, and Companions.”
The Permanent Committee for Scholarly Research and Ifta’
Shaykh ‘Abdul-‘Azeez bin ‘Abdullaah bin Baaz
Shaykh ‘Abdul-‘Azeez Aal ash-Shaykh
Shaykh ‘Abdullah al-Ghudayyaan
Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan
Shaykh Bakr Abu Zayd
Source: http://www.alifta.net – The first question of Fatwa no. 17521
Thank you for giving us your position. The interesting thing is that in this particular post Sheikh Bin Baaz was asked to debate this or to at the least have a symposium on the matter. Bin Baaz backed down. He missed a huge opportunity to proclaim his position.
You can see where the Haqq is by looking at the articles here.
The Qur’an is created. That is without doubt.
https://primaquran.com/2022/01/10/the-quran-is-created-4/
Sheikh bin Baz was right Rahimahullah. There is ‘ijma upon this point! The companions RadiyAllahu’anhum said whoever claims the Quran is created is a Kaafir!
This is in most books in aqeedah from the Salaf!
Also in the books in Usool from the Salaf is to not debate the people of desires such as yourself!
May Allah guide you to Islam!
This is the best that you can do and it’s little wonder that Shaykh bin Baz ran from the debate with Shaykh Ahmed Al Khalili.
There is no ‘ijma on the issue of the Qur’an being created/uncreated otherwise the debate would not exist.
Now you made a very interesting claim. As you may or may not be aware Muslims are people who are truthful.
“The COMPANIONS RadiyAllahu’anhum said whoever claims the Quran is created is a Kaafir!”
Say: “Produce your proof if ye are truthful.” (Qur’an 2:111)
Let me give you a quick lesson and perhaps in the future when you go around making takfir you will actually think before you speak/type.
The Salaaf have the following categories:
Sahabah-Companions
Tabi’-un -Successors
Tabi’ al-Tabi’in -Successors of the Sucessors
And to remind you that you stated:
“The COMPANIONS RadiyAllahu’anhum said whoever claims the Quran is created is a Kaafir!”
Go ahead and give that list of COMPANIONS (plural) that made that claim.
As regards your last statement. And as it looks like your a claimant of this sect that calls itself “Salafiyyah” allow me to point out an ahad narration for you.
It is reported on the authority of Ibn ‘Umar that the Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) said:
Any person who called his brother: “O unbeliever” (has in fact done an act by which this unbelief) would return to one of them. If it were so, as he asserted (then the unbelief of man was confirmed but if it was not true), then it returned to him (to the man who labeled it on his brother Muslim).
Source: https://sunnah.com/muslim:60b
Now I will not make tafkir for you. I will make du’a for guidance because it is clear that you are upon ignorance.
Baz was the type of man who would not accept that the Earth is round and would make takfeer upon those who believed otherwise for some time.
The problem with Wahhabism is that for them, the entire world of Islam revolves around Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Ibn Taymiyyah, Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyah, Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, Bin Baz, Uthaymeen, and Albani.
They will not accept anything outside their worldview, which makes them appear more like fools than true followers of the Salaf.
Whenever there’s clear evidence, they won’t budge an inch on an issue.
They believe they are acting like Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, who chose to be whipped rather than say the Quran was created.
As Muslims we are commanded to be fair and just even to our opponents. As regard Shaykh Baz and this view attributed to him if I am not mistaken I believe that has been debunked. In other words he did not say it.
However, Shaykh Fawzan has clearly stated that the Sun goes around the Earth and this is what he believes is apparent in the Qur’an.
Allah (swt) knows best.