Shamsi meets Daniel: Passionate discussion on obeying the rulers.

Say, “Allah’s guidance is the only ˹true˺ guidance.” And if you were to follow their desires after ˹all˺ the knowledge that has come to you, there would be none to protect or help you against Allah.” (Qur’an 2: 120)

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I like to start off with this picture. Both brothers Daniel and Shamsi sharing a smile. This came after a heckler was really trying to detract Shamsi from speaking. Thus, Daniel being bigger in size offered to change places with Shamsi.

Abu Dharr narrated that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said :

“Your smiling in the face of your brother is charity, commanding good and forbidding evil is charity, your giving directions to a man lost in the land is charity for you. Your seeing for a man with bad sight is a charity for you, your removal of a rock, a thorn or a bone from the road is charity for you. Your pouring what remains from your bucket into the bucket of your brother is charity for you.”

Source: (https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:1956)

Both Shamsi and Daniel are very passionate about their positions and thus it would good to have them meet face to face. Many times there are people who support either position and online at best they can do is heckle and this is anything but productive. 

This is the exchange between Daniel & Shamsi.

To be fair in this exchange Shamsi certainly exhibited more knowledge of the religion. At least he was more willing to go to the sources. Feel free to agree or disagree with my observation.

First point. Can Daniel make new groups as a layman?
It was established by (Shamsi) that he (Daniel) cannot.

Daniel makes a point that not everyone who says they are Muslims are not and this part of the exchange between himself and Shamsi is very important!

@2:53 “Not all of them some of them are munafiqeen.” -Daniel

Shamis: “But you don’t know that it’s in the heart.” -Shamsi

Shamsi agreed with Daniel that based upon actions one can determine if they are actions of nifaq (hypocrisy). This is important when you read what is ascribed to Caliph Umar (ra) below.

Second point can you call someone a kafir for doing acts or making statements that by necessity are known to be so something one needs to refer to only a scholar for? Shamsi was correct in that you can make takfir If what was done or said goes against what is necessarily established as part of the faith.

Third point. Daniel asserts that for his views there are many authoritative scholars
that assert his position. Shamsi asked him to “name one.” Shamsi was glowing at that point because he clearly had Daniel.

However, after pressing Daniel, Daniel brought up Shaykh Abdul Aziz Al Tarifi.

Shamsi seemed to scoff at the idea that Shaykh Abdul Aziz al Tarifi is a scholar. It is not certain what Daniel had in mind however, Shaykh al-Tarifi has made a very powerful speech in which the interviewer reminded him that they were “live” as sort of a nudge to Shaykh al-Tarifi to not get in trouble with the state apparatus.

Listen to what Shaykh al-Tarifi has said: This is only the statement of someone who fears Allah and believes in meeting him and believes in the last day. This is the statement of a Shaykh that is giving wise counsel to his colleagues. May Allah (swt) reward him!

Daniel brought up that Rabii Al Madhkali made takfir of Muslim rulers,
to which Shamsi replies that it was edited.

Daniel brought up that Shaykh Bin Baz made takfir of Iraqi ruler, Saddam Hussein.

Daniel confronted Shamsi for making tabdee of him, which basically means that Daniel is an innovator, which by right means when he dies he would go to hell as he would be someone who innovated in the religion of Allah (swt). When Daniel presses Shamsi, Shamsi mentions some scholar’s name which I believe to be: Shaykh Arafat al Muhammadi (which is like Shami’s groups own personal scholar). It is even said that this Shaykh Arafat Al Muhammadi went after Shaykh Al Rabbi Al Madhkali. Very unfortunate that these people are so full of divisiveness.

Daniel also makes a fair point which basically is that anyone Daniel cites or quotes, Shamsi will simply deflect by stating they are not a scholar. That same point will be made latter when mentioning Shaykh Al-Deddew (h)

Shamsi went to a tweet that Daniel had posted on X. Daniel at first wanted to distance himself from. However, Daniel owned the tweet and even read it.

This is that tweet:

Yet, this is really a debatable point if one is meant by constant infatuation with it. The point is really pedantic.

Neither Daniel nor Shamsi obsessed about politics.
However, it seems it is o.k for Shamsi to muse about about political situations of the Muslims
but it is not o.k for Daniel to do so. So the real bone of contention was really on the Madhkali Salafis being overly obsessed with politics. I do agree with Daniel’s assessment of the situation in the tweet above.

The point came to Shaykh Raslan condemning Erdogan. (Not certain if they mean/meant Shaykh Muhammed Saeed Raslan) Shamsi said he condemns the Shaykh for that comment about Erdogan.

However, when the discussion pivoted back to Shaykh Rabbi Al Madhkali
condemning Sudan Shamsi countered rather or not he meant the Baathist, Socialist.

Shaykh Rabbi Al Madhkali did give a fatwa that the Salafis who follow him should assist this Khalifa Haftar against the Libyan government and other groups.

In the above video you can skip to: @5:25 minutes to hear the fatwa from Shaykh Rabbi Al Madhkali. “The Salafi’s should join (the forces) under the Banner of Haftar.”

So here comes an interesting point. If the Madhkali scholars discern that someone is not Muslim or measures up to their understanding of Islam they can be condemned as Non Muslim and thus, both criticism and uprising would not be stopped.

I find this point interesting because you will find among these groups of Muslims those who work the people up with: “They say you are an innovator, and unbeliever.” etc. They say this as if they themselves are free from it!

May Allah guide the Ummah! May Allah forgive the Ummah!

Another point in Daniels favour is the Madhkali being state sponsored
agents of the government. So now the point comes about such people being helped and assisted by the state intelligence apparatus.

Shamsi throught he countered Daniel by saying in the time of the righteous Caliphs the people were paid by the government, but by saying this he actually proved Daniel’s point!

Because if I am being paid by a government that Is Madhakali in orientation it only makes sense that I would spread their ideology. The same if the government was Ottoman Hanafi, Safavid Shi’i, or any other for that matter.

Also, Shamsi loses ground on the point of being an agent. An agent does not necessarily need to be a shadowy figure with an offshore account having money deposited in it.

The English definition of the word agent is: representative, emissary, envoy, proxy, surrogate, delegate, spokesman, spokesperson, mouthpiece, instrument, vehicle etc.…

For example one could say that Prima-Qur’an is an agent of inter & intra Islamic discussions.

In that sense anyone of us at any given time are agents for the ideologies, faith
and worldview that believe in.

Both Daniel and Shamsi are guilty of delaying the preparation for the prayer
by arguing over matters of the worldly affairs.

This is not to say the worldly affairs are not important but the True Sovereign is Allah (swt).

Personally, such discussions are best if they are sitting down in a circle and possibly it is best to begin with a supplication asking for the guidance of Allah (swt).

This is the continuation after the prayer. 

May Allah (swt) bless this brother Mansur, he speaks calmly and with intelligence and he calls for something good. That is to benefit from one another and to stick to the Qur’an and the Sunnah.

Also, if anyone has doubts about Islam this video is a proof for those who have eyes to see. The two interlocutors have vastly different perspectives on this issue. Yet, notice their demeanor after the prayer. There is more tranquility and more calm. It is up to us to maintain that tranquility.

“Those who have believed and whose hearts are assured by the remembrance of Allah. Truly, hearts find peace only in the remembrance of Allah” (Qur’an 13:28)

Starting off with a beautiful and powerful verse in the Qur’an.

“O you who have believed, obey Allāh and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allāh and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allāh and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.” (Qur’an 4:59)

Support your brother rather he is the oppressor being oppressed.

“Narrated Anas:

Allah’s Messenger (saw) said, “Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, “O Allah’s Messenger (saw)! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?” The Prophet (saw) said, “By preventing him from oppressing others.”

Source: (https://sunnah.com/bukhari:2444)

What brother Daniel does next is truly not acceptable (for any of us).
He appeals to the crowd, the audience for a fatawa, a verdict on the matter
being discussed.

Even Shamsi’s camera man whom usually stays quite subdued proclaimed correctly,
“That’s a silly question because you’re asking the awaam (people) who do not know.”

If I am 100% honest my heart wants to be with Daniel & the crowd saying what they say. However, Islam is not a faith of the passions and emotions it is based on proof and evidences.

Shamsi is 100% correct though! The answer of the crowd is not Qur’an and Sunnah. The answer of the crowd is not a proof nor an evidence.

@6:09 listen to Shamsi “MAY ALLAH CURSE THE ZIONIST.”

To which I (Prima-Qur’an) reply Amin!

Shamsi says that according to Shaykh Bin Baz out of extreme necessity the answer is yes (that one could establish relations with the Zionist entity.”

Shamsi is correct that Saudi Arabia does not currently have official relations with the Zionist entity.

@7:51 Shamsi ask Daniel a question: “Who is worse the Quresh who killed the companions or the Zionist who killed the Muslims?”

Shamsi than ask who is the one who made peace treaty with them. You can tell by the look at the audience that it got them thinking.

Daniel quickly interjects that this is based on the understanding that they will not kill anymore Muslims.

Al hamdulillah! I appreciate the fire and the delivery with which Daniel delivers the haqq on the matter! Allahu Akbar!

That Normalization with the Zionist means that the Palestinians will continue to be boycotted, marginalized, blockaded, ethnically cleansed.

@9:22 Again Shamsi says about the Zionist “May Allah curse them man!”

Discussion on Treaty of Hudaybiyah.

@10:49 Shamsi made a point that he and others felt was a slam dunk. However, it was not quite the slam dunk that he and others thinks that it is and insh’Allah I will explain why shortly.

Shamsi gives a parallel to the treaty of Hudaybiyah as such:
A Muslim country made a treaty with a kafir and the kafir country comes and says we will do the treaty on the condition if a Muslim runs away from us and he comes to you, you have to give him up to us and by giving him up to us we will torture him.

Shamsi ask: “If a Muslim country will do that are they Muslim or kuffar.”
The crowd:…….absolute silence.

In fact I am personally thankful to both for this conversation because Allah (swt) has granted us (those who viewed for the sake of learning) Allah (swt) has granted us a HUGE FATIH (OPENING). He gave me something immense to reflect on. Al hamdulillah!

That there can be things about our deen our faith that seem downright incredulous, and ridiculous at the time. This is was the case to even to the faithful companions who lived, and acknowledged the Mercy to Creation, The Blessed Messenger (saw)! 

Yet, this verse in the Qur’an was revealed on this occasion.
“Indeed, We have opened for your struggle (O Muhammed) a clear path to victory.” (Qur’an 48:1)

Oh Allah (swt) thank you for the blessings of Al Islam! Remember brothers and sisters and let this be a lesson for all of us. That at times we may undergo things that don’t make sense in our spiritual path or in a journey at the time. What could look like utter despair is Allah (swt) working behind the scenes to grant us an immense opening! An immense blessing!

@12:39 “Mohamed Hijab said online there is only two state solution. I reject it! There is only one Palestine!”-Shamsi

Allahu Akbar!

Daniel’s reaction to Shamsi is priceless!

Say it again brother Shamsi! “There is no two states solution! I reject it! There is only one Palestine!”

Shamsi said: “Islamicaly now if they make peace treaty that’s between them, but me I’ll accept nothing!”

@13:36 “So called Israel” -Shamsi!!

@16:55 Daniel makes an excellent point that we cannot go into peace treaties blind to the ideology of the one that wants a peace treaty.

Zionism by it’s very motivations is about clearing the land (meaning of Palestinians) for their own purposes.

How are we Muslims going to be comfortable with this?

@17:45 Daniel makes a major point that cannot be taken lightly by anyone who takes these matters seriously.

Netanyahu shows a map to the United Nations without Palestine.

This is a declaration of war against the Ummah of Islam. This is war with all of us!

So to those of our brothers from the Madhkali understanding of the deen. Please continue to teach Aqidah, warn against shirk, bid’ah, however, for the Love of Allah (swt) and his Messenger (saw) wake up to what is happening!

Do not be on the wrong side of this!

Why can’t Salafi who hold to the Madhkali position do the following: Ask the Imam of your masjid to write a letter expressing the disappointment with such relations. Do not attack or curse or mock the leader. In the letter ask Allah to guide him and guide the people. If all the Imams of countries like Jordan, Egypt, U.A.E, Saudi can do this and present it to their leaders without confrontation isn’t that the least that can be done?

@19:35 the Uncle from Jordan makes a great point. There were many Arab
battalions some from Iraq and even some from Saudi Arabia came and they were all defeated in the 7 day war. They were all under their individual nationalistic flags.

He quotes: “If you support Allah, Allah will support you.”

“O you who have believed, if you support Allah , He will support you and plant firmly your feet.” (Qur’an 47:7)

@22:40 Daniel makes a point that was reinforced earlier. As he named Muhammād Al-Hasān bin Al-Deddew Al-Shanqītī(h).
Shamsi responds by calling him an Ashari’i Sufi. Which means they have to be of the view that Shamsi is upon.

After some point it descends into talking over each other and interruptions.
What I was able to discern from Shamsi and the Uncle from Jordan is that matters of state
are left to the rulers, this is not for layman. The saying, “Stay in your lane.” comes to mind.

So it is maybe normal for us as common people to berate the rulers especially if we see increases in prices or increases in taxes. Yet I believe ultimately the Madhkhali Salafiyah are saying (at least in theory)-though we have seen they have a tendency themselves to break this, is to leave matters of statecraft to the state.

That the common Muslim should busy themselves with knowledge of their faith, and meritorious acts that are pleasing to Allah (swt).

@25:44 “The Zionist May Allah curse them! “Say Amin!” “Say Amin!”

@28:19 “Ask Shamsi I have to give my life to the Zionist, May Allah
destroy them and curse them!” “Say Amin!”

Discussion on Treaty of Hudaybiyah.

There are some very important points that I wish Shamsi and all those who agree with his understanding of this to consider.

The Blessed Prophet (saw) was guided to make decisions via revelation and inspiration.

I heard ‘Umar bin Al- Khattab (ra) reported saying: “In the lifetime of Messenger of Allah (saw) some people were called to account through Revelation. Now Revelation has discontinued and we shall judge you by your apparent acts. Whoever displays to us good, we shall grant him peace and security, and treat him as a near one. We have nothing to do with his insight. Allah will call him to account for that. But whosoever shows evil to us, we shall not grant him security nor shall we believe him, even if he professed that his intention is good.”

Source: (Riyad as-Salihin 395 Bukhari, Hadith 395)

Can it be said that any leader alive today is guided by revelation and inspiration from Allah (swt) in the way that the Blessed Messenger (saw) is? The answer is no. So the analogy of the Treaty of Hudaybiyah being guided by The Best of Guides , who himself was Guided by the Source of Guidance and comparing this with the politics of statecraft which is often motivated by economics , geopolitics and not necessarily for the pleasure of Allah (swt) is a very flawed analogy.

May Allah (swt) bless brothers Shamsi and Daniel. May Allah (swt) forgive them and forgive us. May Allah (swt) guide them and guide us.