“And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women-if you doubt, then their period is three months, and those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah-He will make for him of this matter ease.” (Qur’an 65:4)
﷽
The Qur’an — like the Bible, does not set down the age for marriage.
“And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women—if you doubt, then their period is three months, and those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah—He will make ease for him in this matter.” (Qur’an 65:4)
The above verse can be used to suggest that a person can marry a girl who has not even had menses. In science, one of these terms is called Amenorrhea.
As long as there is ovulation, a woman can still get pregnant.
Again, the Qur’an does not give a definite age requirement. It simply gives some guidelines.
For example:
“Test the orphans, until they reach balaghu; then, if you perceive in them the right judgment, deliver to them their property; consume it not wastefully and hastily ere they are grown. If any man is rich, let him be abstinent; if poor, let him consume in reason. And when you deliver their property to them, take witnesses over them; Allah suffices for a reckoner.”(Qur’an 4:6)
This text says nothing about the age of marrying any female. It is simply stating that their property will be held in trust until two things happen.
A) Is that the female is balaghu. Says absolutely nothing about what age would be appropriate for marriage.
B) That this female can have her property delivered to her when you ‘perceive in them the right judgment’.
The word balagha comes from the root word blgh, which means ‘to reach’ or ‘to attain’. Today it is used to reference eloquence in speech. Or at the very least, being fluid in speaking.
People try and make what they perceive to be a logical jump by surmising that if one has to be in ‘the right judgment’ to take ownership of property, that this implies somehow a female who is a ‘teenager’ or ‘young adult’ would also need to be in ‘the right judgment’ to bare children.
Well, according to the designer Allah — who knows best — that is not the case. Insh’Allah, we will discuss this further down the article in the section on analyzing this through evolution.
We think of nothing more insulting to women than to ask them to take an IQ test to determine cognitive awareness. Before we get married, we need you to take a test to determine the following:
- Your ability to reason.
- Memory — ability to recall information.
- Problem-solving skills.
- Verbal ability.
- Mental acuity.
- Spatial awareness
This cruel interpretation of the text would not allow for vulnerable women to get married. We are talking about women with emotional disorders (there are an array of them).
Abu Musa narrated that :
The Messenger of Allah said: “There is no marriage except with a Wali.”
Source: (https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:1101)
What is interesting about the above hadith is that the Hanafi school understands this to refer to the above category of women (vulnerable women due to various facts) as a nikah is a contract and she can:
a) have a guarantor for her marital contract — a wali
b) not have a guarantor for her marital contract.
Orphans are not necessarily people with no assets or no wealth. Maybe not appropriate here, but no one thinks of Bruce Wayne (the character) otherwise known as ‘Batman’ as someone with no wealth or assets. An orphan, rather, is someone (anyone) who, if they do not have guardians and guarantors, can be taken advantage of.
Note the following verse:
“And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure for them, and their father had been righteous. So your Lord intended that they reach maturity (ashuddahuma) and extract their treasure as a mercy from your Lord. And I did not of my own accord. That is the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience.”(Qur’an 18:82)
ashuddahu comes from an Arabic root meaning fully tight, a rope that is pulled from both ends so that it is firm and not loose. (Indicating that they are now standing straight on their feet)
The following verse dispels any idea about females needing to be in ‘the right judgment’ to bare children.
“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend their means on them.” (Qur’an 4:34)
Also, notice something else about the text above in “let him consume in reason” — maybe a poor man who has taken in orphans that he has a right over some of their property/wealth in reason. It does not specify any amount. This is delegated to an authority outside the Qur’an. If there is any dispute, an arbiter or legal authority will be brought in.
“O you who have believed, let those whom your right hands possess and those who have not [yet] reached puberty among you (yablughu l-huluma minkum) ask permission of you [before entering] at three times: before the dawn prayer and when you put aside your clothing [for rest] at noon and after the night prayer. [These are] three times of privacy for you. There is no blame upon you nor upon them beyond these [periods], for they continually circulate among you — some of you, among others. Thus does Allah make clear to you the verses; and Allah is Knowing and Wise. And when the children among you reach puberty(balagha l-atfalu minkumu l-huluma), let them ask permission [at all times] as those before them have done. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses; and Allah is Knowing and Wise.” (Qur’an 24:58-59)
There are several keywords one can look into in the above text:
Aftal-meaning children or toddlers.
Balagha hulm (it is tied with the wet dream) is a sign of puberty. Why do you think the word hulum, which is connected to dreams, is connected with balagh?
Qur’an 21: 5 & Qur’an 12:44.
Balagha (eloquence and clearness)
Bulugh (a boy or a girl reaches the age of clarity)
These two words above have the same trilateral root in the Arabic language and are closely connected together.
A Muslim preacher absolutely shuts the Christian antagonist down with one simple question.
We love Brother Sabeel and his gentle character. (We pray that Allah continues to bless and support him.) This video we feel was a missed opportunity to both capitalize and educate Christians on a fundamental point that they constantly use to assail the Blessed Messenger (saw)
Now notice that this man is quite combative. His body language, invading personal space, everything about him is combative. He is trying to corner this Muslim brother, Sabeel Ahmed, over the age of Ayesha (ra)
Sabeel Ahmed is, of course, one of those Muslims who are apologists who often don’t state plainly their view on something. Now notice that @14:30 the whole flow of this exchange completely changes for a moment. Once, the man made the mistake of saying ‘according to this book (the Bible), marriage to a child is wrong.’ Sabeel asked him simply to show him where this was stated? Show him one verse. The man IMMEDIATELY disengaged eye contact and turned towards the other man.
Sabeel Ahmed (May Allah bless him for his efforts) did not do three things here.
- Point out that getting married does not equate to consummation in the marriage. For example, Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette did not consummate their marriage for seven years, to cite a famous example.
In many parts of the Indian subcontinent—Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, and some Muslim communities—historical child marriage did not mean the couple began marital life immediately.
Instead, it typically involved:
Marriage ceremony (vivāha / nikāḥ) at a young age
A purely social and ritual event intended to “join the families” or fulfill cultural norms.
Gṛha-praveśa (the bride entering the husband’s home) years later
This was the actual start of married life.
Consummation only after puberty
Consummation was normally delayed until the bride reached maturity.
Many communities explicitly forbade cohabitation or intercourse until then.
This is actually from the Qur’an.
“There is no blame if you divorce women before the marriage is consummated or the dowry is settled. But give them a compensation—the rich according to his means and the poor according to his. A reasonable compensation is an obligation on the good-doers. And if you divorce them before consummating the marriage but after deciding on a dowry, pay half of the dowry, unless the wife graciously waives it or the husband graciously pays in full. Graciousness is closer to righteousness. And do not forget kindness among yourselves. Surely Allah is All-Seeing of what you do.” (Qur’an 2:236-237)
It should be noted that in Islam the schools of jurisprudence need consent from the woman or they need her not to object. Consent is not something attainable from a child.
2. He didn’t stay focused on that point! 16 minutes of intense discussion, and he let that man right off the hook. If he could get the man to admit that the Bible does not give an age for marriage, he could have:
3. Ask the man on what basis he objects to it?
SCIENCE / EVOLUTION — on what AGE is appropriate for a female to bear children.
Let us say, for the sake of argument, that you put aside religion and culture for a moment. Let us argue from the perspective of biological science. According to evolution, when is a Homo sapien female able to have a child?
“That was the Way (sunnata) of Allah in the case of those who passed away of old, and you will not find any change in the Way (lisunnati)of Allah.” (Qur’an 33:62)
So, whatever comes about that is also corroborated by science is something that Allah has decreed. We believe there is no Muslim who would dispute this.
https://www.webmd.com/children/children-no-period-15#1
The opening article says:
“Girls usually get their first menstrual period when they’re 12 or 13. It’s a sign that your body is maturing, so that one day if you want to, you should be able to have a baby.”
So, for all the atheists and agnostics and those who decry that there is no objective morality and yet attack Islamic oral traditions that ascribe to the Blessed Messenger-saw that he married a female at a very young age, it should be noted that nature has determined that the moment a female has menses and produces eggs -she can have a baby.
There is no one that can dispute this.
That means that if we completely remove religion from the picture, nature—aka—evolution has decreed that a human female is viable to propagate her species at a certain age range.
It has nothing to with education, it has nothing to do with mental capacity and everything to do with her ability to have children.
So the Qur’an does not give any particular requirements or age. This is left up to good common sense, and what is appropriate from one culture to the other.
We have even had conversations with U.S. Americans about the appropriate age for people to be together, and they were all over the map.
However, what we did find interesting is that, among progressive /liberal types in the United States, all types of couple arrangements are acceptable, such as LGBT, people who are swingers, or share their partners, etc.
Yet, they really do frown upon age disparity. Whereas in Asia we have seen and witnessed very often 10 and 15 year age gaps between couples.
Al Pacino (81 years of age) started dating Noor Alfallah (28) when they started dating back in 2022.
A picture of the couple together. (https://people.com/al-pacinos-girlfriend-noor-alfallah-relationship-blossome-like-film-school-8604715)
Elvis Presley was 24 when he started dating Priscilla Presley, who was then 14. The People of the United States loved Elvis and his music and people at the time were not outrated over the apparent age gap.
A picture of the young couple together.
https://www.elvispresleymusic.com.au/pictures/photos-elvis-priscilla-lisa-marie.html
Final Thoughts. People have taken this whole age of Aisha (ra) and made a mountain out of a molehill. This is likely due to conditioning and social surroundings. It is interesting that this is not a Jewish objection or a Hindu objection. In other words, it is interesting to know which cultures have objections to which things and why. We would encourage you to read the comments on this article and the exchange we have had with others. As mentioned, the number of Muslim men we have personally encountered that are married to a female under the age of 21, let alone 16 or 12 is 0. When something like that does happen, it becomes international news as if an airplane went down in some remote part of the world. Islam gives some parameters on the basis for a male or female to be eligible for marriage. It does not give any artificial boundaries.
We have personally asked: “Your daughter is 18 and a man who is 45 has an interest in marrying her. Do you let it transpire?” His response was a resounding no, and that tells you all you need to know about the artificiality of such positions to begin with.
As regards the hadith on the matter, they are ahad dhani, lone narrator reports, which means it is speculative in nature.
The hadith could be true and Aisha (ra) could have simply guessed her age. Some people in our team have met Indonesians who are not certain of their age due to not having birth certificates. One could claim they are 17, yet in reality be 14. One could assume they are 11 and in reality be 13.
This article claims up to 25% of children in Indonesia do not own birth certificates. This also complicates matters for those Indonesian women wanting to work as domestic helpers over seas. Agencies require certain age requirements and this often becomes difficult to ascertain with 100% accuracy.
This is why you get mature academic discussion from in traditional Islamic circles on the matter:
You may also be interested in reading:
https://primaquran.com/2022/10/04/the-age-of-aisha-and-the-highly-detailed-quran/
So there is wisdom in the Qur’an leaving these matters to time/location/custom/culture.
And Allah knows best.
May Allah (swt) Guide the Ummah.
May Allah (swt) Forgive the Ummah.
Prima Quran 
Salaam alaykum akhi,
May Allah (SWT) bless you and your family.
First of all, I would like to say that I agree with you when you say the Qur’an does not set down an age for marriage. However, there are several things that need to be considered carefully in the Qur’an. The Verse you quoted reads:
And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women – if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah – He will make for him of his matter ease. {Qur’an 65:4}
An important thing to note is that the chapter starts off by saying: “O Prophet, when you [Muslims] divorce women (An-Nisaa)”. It says WOMEN and not Jariyah (young girls)! Even the Verse quoted above says “menstruation among your WOMEN (Nisaa)” and you made an excellent observation akhi when you mentioned the term Amenorrhea in reference to where the Verse says” and [also for] those who have not menstruated”. Amenorrhea is a medical condition which has 2 types:
– Primary Amenorrhea: mentrual periods have never begun (by age 16).
– Secondary Amenorrhea: the absence of menstrual periods for three consecutive months or a time period of more than six months in WOMEN WHO WAS PREVIOUSLY MENSTRUATING.
So, as you can see akhi the Verse is not talking about pre-menstrual little girls at all as the traditionalists want us to believe. Some women have this condition where their period stops for a significant amount of time so Allah (SWT) is addressing us on how to get around this if we were to divorce our women.
I understand perfectly well akhi that a girl who has reached the age of puberty (having menstrual cycles) is capable of having babies. However, are they ready psychologically and is this really what the Qur’an is saying? The Verse you quoted reads:
And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. And do not consume it excessively and quickly, [anticipating] that they will grow up. And whoever, [when acting as guardian], is self-sufficient should refrain [from taking a fee]; and whoever is poor – let him take according to what is acceptable. Then when you release their property to them, bring witnesses upon them. And sufficient is Allah as Accountant. {Qur’an 4:6}
Notice that the chapter (Surah An-Nisaa) begins by mentioning the properties of orphans and also mentions MARRIAGE (Nikah). So, these Verses have a context of marriage and it says to test the orphans until they reach marriageable age (annikaha). THEN IF YOU PERCEIVE SOUND JUDGMENT (Rushdan) , release their property to them. Notice the word ‘rushdan’ which appears in several other Verses in The Quran as well. For example:
Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement (Rushda)?” {Qur’an 18:66}
And We had certainly given Abraham his sound judgement (rushdahu) before, and We were of him well-Knowing. {Qur’an 21:51}
As you can see, Prophet Moses (AS) is asking the one sent to him (traditionally known as Khidr) to teach him what he was taught of sound judgment. Also, the 2nd Verse says that Ibrahim (AS) was given sound judgment by Allah. This word has the following meanings:
– led aright
– the right
– (in the) right way
– (in the) right path
– sound judgment
– right-minded
See the link – http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=r$d
It would be very strange to suggest that these orphans are ready for marriage even though they’re incapable of managing their properties! How would they manage a marriage commitment if they’re incapable of managing their properties? Therefore, being at a marriageable age (Nikah) is dependent or linked together with having sound judgement (rushdan)! Because obviously, someone could reach puberty, and yet still be very immature can’t they?
Another thing to ponder over is in the SAME CHAPTER (it’s no coincidence) that Allah (SWT) describes marriage as a solemn covenant:
And how could you take it while you have gone in unto each other and they have taken from you a solemn covenant? {4:21}. Notice the arabic words ‘meethaqan ghaleetha’ and the SAME WORDS are used to describe the solemn covenant Allah took with The Prophets. Take a look:
And [mention, O Muhammad], when We took from the prophets their covenant and from you and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus, the son of Mary; and We took from them a solemn covenant (meethaqan ghaleetha). {33:7}.
You can see how SERIOUS a marriage commitment is so how can a girl who’s reached puberty and hasn’t yet attained sound judgment be ready for it? Now, let the traditionalists answer this:
– Would YOU marry a 6 year old?
– or a 9 year old yourself??
– Would you even marry off your 6 or 9 year old daughter to an older man??? Think about this man!!
But according to their Sahih hadeeths, Aisha was married (NIKAH) when she was 6:
Narrated `Aisha:
that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/69
Have you ever asked yourself, how is NIKAH possible with a 6 year old??? Did Aisha know what was going on? Did she consent? The traditionalist plays with gymnastics and says “oh, but it wasn’t consummated until she was 9. The fact of the matter is, she was MARRIED at 6 making her a CHILD! How the hell can you defend this???
I remember I was at a family gathering and this adorable little girl came next to me and started playing. I asked her name and hold old she was. She said she was 6 and I stood there for a second thinking about this hadeeth. I said, how can anyone in their right mind marry a girl of this age??? These hadeeths are nonsense and insult the noble character of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (AS).
According to the following hadeeth, Aisha didn’t even know what was going on! Take a look:
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet (ﷺ) engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/63/120
Notice that it says she (Aisha) didn’t know what her mother was doing with her! It also says: “Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me” so she didn’t know what was going on! Isn’t marriage consensual? And how do you get the consent of a 6 year old? Even at the age of 9, it appears that Aisha wasn’t aware of the situation. How the hell can you defend this???
How can you convince yourself and even to non Muslims that marriage with children is OK? This is utterly disgraceful and unacceptable regardless of the time. We can simply brush this off and say it was a long time ago and that was the norm back then. But isn’t Prophet Muhammad (AS) a role model for us until Yawmul Qiyamah? Aren’t we to follow his SUNNAH? Should we also be marrying underage girls???
Wake up Oh Muslims and throw these nonsensical and ridiculous (Lahwal Hadeeths) stories into the bin! And let us come back to the Book of Allah which makes things CLEAR! Alahmdullillahi Rabbil-Aalameen.
Take care akhi and and God bless!
Salaam,
Abdullah
Dear readers, “Abdullah” is a part of a movement that has broke away from Islam and they form their own religion known as the Quranites. They are a federation of a sects that believe many different things.
Some of them believe in a prophet after the Blessed Messenger, the Prophet Muhammed saw.
Some of them like Sam Gerrans believe that the world is flat and that this is what the Qur’an teaches us.
This particular individual I have not interacted with in some time and in my response you will see why.
First let us deal with the emotives. The emotional outburst.
“Have you ever asked yourself, how is NIKAH possible with a 6 year old??? Did Aisha know what was going on? Did she consent? The traditionalist plays with gymnastics and says “oh, but it wasn’t consummated until she was 9. The fact of the matter is, she was MARRIED at 6 making her a CHILD! How the hell can you defend this???”
What do you say to the emotives?
Next this person superimposes a meaning upon the text. Again using the frame of reference of the upbringing in the 21 century.
“An important thing to note is that the chapter starts off by saying: “O Prophet, when you [Muslims] divorce women (An-Nisaa)”. It says WOMEN and not Jariyah (young girls)! Even the Verse quoted above says “menstruation among your WOMEN (Nisaa)”
Yet you notice what “Abdullah” doesn’t do?
“Abdullah” doesn’t tell us what is it that distinguishes a female that is imraa and a female that is jariyah.
Yet the Qur’an is not silent on this.
“And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women – if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah – He will make for him of his matter ease. {Qur’an 65:4}
Menstration is what distinguishes a female that is a Nisa – and a female that is jariyah.
Notice also that “Abdullah” absolutely concedes this point in what he thinks is a refutation of what is put.
Read carefully:
“Primary Amenorrhea: mentrual periods have never begun (by age 16).
Secondary Amenorrhea: the absence of menstrual periods for three consecutive months or a time period of more than six months in WOMEN WHO WAS PREVIOUSLY MENSTRUATING” < Very Good.
"Women who was previously menstrating" and if she was menstrating she was according to "Abdullah" a WOMAN and not as "Abdullah" says, a "little girl".
Now one thing that I will give "Abdullah" and the person that goes by the psuedonymn "Joseph Islam" the benefit of the doubt concerning is that I do believe that they believe in Allah.
So remember it is Allah that decreed that WOMEN start ovulating at 11 and 12 and can conceive a baby.
Now I'm sure that both "Abdullah" and "Joseph Islam" believe that Allah swt in his infinite wisdom could have a female ovulate when she is 16 solar years or 16 lunar years, or 21 lunar years or 21 solar years. Yet, it is not decreed as such.
In fact since we all like science let' s take a look at what the following says:
https://www.livescience.com/33170-youngest-age-give-birth-pregnancy.html
This live science article ask what is the youngest age that a WOMAN can give birth.
The article says:
"A WOMAN can get pregnant and have a baby as soon as she begins ovulating, or producing eggs. This typically occurs about a year after they first begin menstruating, which for North American WOMEN, usually happens between the ages of 11 and 12. Some WOMEN start ovulating late, though, and others, extremely early. The early onset of menstration is called "precocious puberty."
The other thing that "Abdullah" did which is honestly quite tiring is completely ignore my article.
He goes on to talk about property distrubition and "sound judgement" as if I didn't already address that.
It is things like that that are blatant and obvious.
All that "Abdullah" does here is parrot the arguments of "Joseph Islam" as I mentioned, I once thought his arguments held weight and upon further reflection I realize that it crumble easily.
For reference these are the articles written by Quranist "Joseph Islam" here:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/ayesha%20age%20FM3.htm
Notice how "Joseph Islam" peppers the title of the article:
WAS AYESHA REALLY A CHILD BRIDE? – MARRIAGEABLE AGE FROM THE QURAN
A CHILD BRIDE…. where does "Joseph Islam" get this extra Quranic terminology from?
As well as here:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/verse%2065-4%20FM3.htm
Again another emotive extra Quranic terminogy in the title:
"DOES VERSE 65:4 PROVIDE CONSENT TO CONSUMMATE A MARRIAGE WITH A FEMALE MINOR?"
"FEMALE MINOR"
However, Al hamdulillah, even "Abdullah" had to admit to the truth in the very opening.
"First of all, I would like to say that I agree with you when you say the Qur’an does not set down an age for marriage."
What more does one need to say?
There are those of us who submit to the authority of what Allah has sent down in the Qur'an.
Than there are those of us who use 21 century definitions of adolescent, adult, and so forth to dictate what is appropriate for all cultures.
May Allah swt guide us all to what is beloved to Allah swt.
Salaam alaykum akhi,
May Allah (SWT) bless you and your family.
I hope you are in good health akhi especially during this Corona outbreak and I pray that Allah protects us all.
You said:
“They are a federation of a sects that believe many different things.”
Wow! And the Traditionists don’t? The Traditionists all believe the same thing do they akhi? So, there is no such thing as Sunni’s/Shia/Hanifi’s/Maliki’s/Shafi’s/Hanbali’s/Ash’ari’s/Athari’s/Sufi’s/Salafi’s/Ahlul-Hadeeth/etc? They all believe that the attributes of Allah (SWT) are literal (Dhahir) vs Metaphoral (Majazi)? They all agree upon how many Verses of the Qur’an were abrogated (Naskh)? Is the Qur’an Eternal or not? The list goes on!
Come on bro! You’ll have to do better than that. Personally, I don’t know anything about this person called Rashid Khalifa and his number 19 business. I’m not interested, nor do I care about them. What matters to me is what Allah (SWT) sent down to his Messenger. I believe what the Messenger believes which is summed up here:
The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], “We make no distinction between any of His messengers.” And they say, “We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination.” {2:285}
Brother, I agree with you when you said:
“Menstruation is what distinguishes a female that is a Nisa – and a female that is jariyah”.
Maybe I wasn’t clear enough on this point. To me, a “little girl” or “young girl” is a pre-menstruating child. And the Qur’an makes it clear that you can only marry menstruating girls (Nisaa) AND have sound judgement (rushdan) – Verse 4:6. Allah (SWT) wouldn’t mention these 2 things together for no reason!
Yes, these girls are biologically ready to bear children once they start ovulating, but does it mean they’re ready for a MARRIAGE commitment which Allah (SWT) refers to as a Solemn Covenant (Verse 4:21)? Bring all the Verses together and think about this akhi! It’s like looking at a young boy who’s just reached the age of puberty at 12 and saying: Come on little man, we’re marching into battle!!! Surely, puberty alone cannot have a person ready for a marriage commitment. That is why the word RUSHDAN is mentioned in the Verse which translates to:
– led aright
– the right
– (in the) right way
– (in the) right path
– sound judgment
– right-minded
This is what the Qur’an says, but the Sahih Hadeeths tell a different story. They say Prophet Muhammad (AS) violated the Quran! Take a look yourself:
Narrated `Aisha:
that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/69
How is this in line with the Quranic narrative?? You still haven’t answered these questions regarding the magnificent Sahih Hadeeths! I’ll ask you the same question again akhi:
how is NIKAH possible with a 6 year old???
Was Aisha at the age of 6 obligated to perform Salah and pay Zakah?? Then how is she ready for NIKAH??
Prophet Muhammad (AS) wouldn’t dare violate that which was sent down to him so these hadeeths are obviously bogus!
You said:
“There are those of us who submit to the authority of what Allah has sent down in the Qur’an”.
Exactly akhi! That’s what we’re doing! We take all the Verses and understand them in the right context. We don’t take a verse or 2 and throw in 50 hadeeths to try to explain it. SubhanAllah! Allah Himself gives the BEST explanations in His Book:
And they do not come to you with an argument except that We bring you the truth and the best explanation (Ahsana Tafseera). {Qur’an 25:33}
May Allah bless you.
Salaam,
Abdullah
Thank you Abdullah for your response.
I believe what you brought was all that you had and there is nothing further to be added from you side in this.
Your comments are here and made public for all to look at and weigh the merits of.
You bring nothing new and just keep repeating the same assertions and it can be seen from the readers that you have both back tracked and corrected assertions you previously made.
Al hamdullillah.
I would caution you to take the words of Allah swt seriously and to not interpolate meaning into the text and to fear Allah, who is strict to take into account.
One such example is what you did in your reply above.
“Maybe I wasn’t clear enough on this point. To me, a “little girl” or “young girl” is a pre-menstruating child. And the Qur’an makes it clear that you can only marry menstruating girls (Nisaa) AND have sound judgement (rushdan) – Verse 4:6. Allah (SWT) wouldn’t mention these 2 things together for no reason!”
This for example I would tel you to FEAR ALLAH.
Fear Allah “Abdullah” the text says no such thing. The text does not say, “You can marry girls that have menstrating AND have sound judgement.” You have interpolated against the word or Allah swt and if you do not repent of it a painful chastisement will await you.
I say that only because of my concern for you as a human being.
The text in fact is not even speaking of marriage as it is speaking of the property of orphans.
Infact you claim to want to talk about context and yet you interpolate your 21 century readings into the text. Astaghfirullah.
For example: Let us look at context.
The whole of the context is distribution of property among orpans and family members.
Examples abound:
And give to the orphans their properties and do not substitute the defective [of your own] for the good [of theirs]. And do not consume their properties into your own. Indeed, that is ever a great sin.-Holy Qur’an 4:2
And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].- Holy Qur’an 4:3
And give the women [upon marriage] their [bridal] gifts graciously. But if they give up willingly to you anything of it, then take it in satisfaction and ease.- Holy Qur’an 4:4
The following verse is interesting because it totally blows out of the water the interpolations that you have asserted upon the Qur’an.
And do not give TTHE WEAK-MINDED YOUR PROPERTY. which Allah has made a means of sustenance for you, but provide for them with it and clothe them and speak to them words of appropriate kindness- Holy Qur’an 4:5
Nothing above saying weak minded women cannot get married.
And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. And do not consume it excessively and quickly, [anticipating] that they will grow up. And whoever, [when acting as guardian], is self-sufficient should refrain [from taking a fee]; and whoever is poor – let him take according to what is acceptable. Then when you release their property to them, bring witnesses upon them. And sufficient is Allah as Accountant.- Holy Qur’an 4:6.
There is NOTHING in the text above that says that a woman has to have reached menses and be of sound judgement to be married.
Indeed, those who devour the property of orphans unjustly are only consuming into their bellies fire. And they will be burned in a Blaze.- Holy Qur’an 4: 10
And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure for them, and their father had been righteous. So your Lord intended that they reach maturity and extract their treasure, as a mercy from your Lord. And I did it not of my own accord. That is the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience.”-Qur’an 18:82
This is another example where not even the mental prowess of the orphans is mentioned but maturity here by meaning strength and ability to fend for themselves.
So we do not need you or Joseph Islam, or anyone of your religion interpolating words into the text of the Qur’an.
I do not except this from the traditionalist and I do not except this from the Quraniyoon religion either.
“Yes, these girls are biologically ready to bear children once they start ovulating,”
This and ….
“First of all, I would like to say that I agree with you when you say the Qur’an does not set down an age for marriage.”
What is highly interesting to the reader is that those of you who claim that the Qur’an is “fully detailed” and that it is “clear” -as long as it accords your interpretation of it, never stop to ponder just how much authority Allah swt allocates to those outside of the revelation itself.
For example:
“And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them.”
It simply says about releasing property to orphans until you PERCEIVE in them sound judgement. Doesn’t give you any type of criteria.
The interesting thing and I would absolutely love -post ramadhan to have a live debate/discussion with anyone from your religion on this very subject because I would love to tease out from your side questions like…. the following.
Let say for the sake of argument that I agreed with your interpolated reading of the text-which I don’t. However, let us entertain you people.
We say o.k Allah swt for what ever reason has decreed that women can start ovulating and producing children at the age of 11 and 12.
If we found a woman who was 11 or 12 that had sound judgement could she marry someone say 50?
I’m going to wager that we will get an emotional response from your side and nothing substantive.
So lets take it further, and let us imagine that your side things that a woman who has sound judgement is around 16 years of age. Would it be appropriate and fine for you all to say she can marry someone who is 50?
Are we going to get Qur’an based answers to these questions or rhetoric and emotive responses?
I’m going to wager the latter.
“But if you want to replace one wife with another and you have given one of them a great amount [in gifts], do not take [back] from it anything. Would you take it in injustice and manifest sin? And how could you take it while you have gone in unto each other and they have taken from you a solemn covenant?” -Holy Qur’an 4:20-21
In Islam when a father gives his daughters hand to a man in marriage he is transfering guardianship. The father was the one responsible to Allah for that woman’s well being. However, when he gives his daughter to that hand in marriage he has fulfilled his responsbility. Allah swt will not hold the father to account for anything as it is now the husbands responsbility.
Something key that you “Abdullah” and “Joseph Islam” leave out is that in the Holy Qur’an 4:21 it is addressing the MEN that the women took a solemn covenant from them, not that the men took a solemn covenant from the women.
wa-akhadhna-and THEY have taken -3rd person feminine plural
minkum-from YOU -2nd person masculine plural
mithaqan-accusative masculine indefinite noun
ghalizan-accusative masculine singular indefinite ajective.
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth-Holy Qur’an 4:34.
It would be quite interesting to see someone from the Quraniyoon religion give a list to us of the women with learning disabilities that are forbidden to seek marriage according to your gross interpolationg of the text.
Perhaps you would forbid women who have down sydrome
Dyspraxia
Dysgraphia
Dyscalculia
Autism
ADHD
The Qur’an doesn’t bar any woman who has any of these challenges to get married.
The Qur’an does caution that a woman who could get taken advantage of concerning her property that its best that a guardian manage her estate/property or what have you.
Any way I feel that you have contributed what you can. I will not be submiting further responses from yourself.
You were given opportunity to speak your thoughts. Also given were two links to “Joseph Islam” and his site which shares similiar view points to you.
May Allah swt guide us all to a way that is straight. It is Ramadan now. Al hamdulillah.
Your opinion on onset of ovulation or menstruation to be equated with an objective standard for Age of Marriage is nonsensical. Even Hippocrates separated the age at which menstruation starts from a healthy age at which a woman’s body is ready to start getting children. Health professionals who work with the victims say (https://www.livescience.com/19584-10-year-birth.html): “Just because a girl can get pregnant, though, doesn’t mean she can safely deliver a baby. The pelvis does not fully widen until the late teens, meaning that young girls may not be able to push the baby through the birth canal.
The results are horrific, said Wall and Thomas, who have both worked in Africa treating women in the aftermath of such labors. Girls may labor for days; many die. Their babies often don’t survive labor either.
The women and girls who do survive often develop fistulas, which are holes between the vaginal wall and the rectum or bladder.”
So biologically speaking your opinion that onset of menstruation means girls cab consider getting pregnant is ill-advised. If you owned horses, cows or other mammals you would recommend very early pregnancies for the dangers they pose.
It is not just liberal westerners who frowned upon age differences. These opinions have always existed.
“what I did find interesting is that among progressive /liberal types in the United States all types of couple arrangements are acceptable such as LGBT, people who are swingers, or share their partners, etc. Yet, they really do frown upon age disparity. Whereas in Asia I have seen and witnessed very often 10 and 15 year age gaps between couples.
So there is wisdom in the Qur’an leaving these matters to time/location/custom/culture.”
In the Jewish tradition large Age gaps were disapproved of and seen as akin to prostitution. So, for example, when Joseph was told to marry Maria his initial refusal was based on his concerns about getting mocked about the age difference.
In a more modern context the state of Delaware “Delaware considers having sex with someone under 16 rape. Having sex with someone under 18, if the offender is over 30, is also considered rape.” also considers a large age-gap a matter of consent and assumes coercion for under-18s.
The UN considers child-marriage child abuse. So one may question why you are promoting child-abuse as an acceptable norm.
If you are going to come on here with “you are promoting child-abuse” as an acceptable norm then you are not here for dialogue or discussion.
Your example of Joseph just doesn’t fly. Quotes and references then when it comes to Joseph silence.
God clearly instructed Joseph to marry Maria, so there goes that argument.
Again as regards ovulation you take that up with thousands of years of human evolution. You know, “mother nature” could have very easily programmed ovulation at what ever solar rotation around the sun the United Nations deemed fit, but it didn’t.
So again enough with your high horse nonsense.
I’m saying we don’t have Quranic evidence to tell us the exact age to get married. Check because you didn’t bring anything.
Neither do we have New Testament or Jewish tanach evidence. You didn’t bring any.
You quoted science I quoted science.
I personally don’t think any woman below 16 should be getting married or having sexual intimacy. But I base that upon my cultural norms and I’m honest about it.
Look even those of you who say Ayesha (r.a) was 18, let’s go with that.
18 year old Ayesha (r.a) with 55 year old Blessed Messenger (saw). Even then people would reject.
So your just stuck with saying maybe the hadiths altogether are all weak. Maybe all we know is she was married, or maybe she wasn’t even a historical figure. Who knows.
Stay safe out there.
Assalamu alaikum,
Bro, just ignore the retard, because he and like him, will never gonna understand. Anyways, I will strive to be the future President of Romania, and I will invite all Muslim political leaders such as Emir of Kuwait and King/Queen of Saudi Arabia to live chat with me on skype, and the topic will be about reforming the teachings of Islam. And then, Muslim World will have to permanently remove and ban child marriage, for it goes against Quran 4:6 and if anyone cpmmits pedophilia in Islamic states will be sentenced to one hundred lashes for it is illicit deed which is not acceptable in Shariah of Islam.
And I will work in becoming also Muslim scholar who will preach against terrorism and violence.
Walakum Salam wrwb, we will try our best not to insult the others. MashAllah may Allah (swt) support you in your endeavors.
I’m talking to the future president of Romania, a beautiful country that I hope I have the opportunity to visit one day.
It is our Dawah duty to stop waffling in apologestics about age of consent and not get lost in the technicals. We need to make it clear Islam is against child marriage, or we’re going to fail to gain ground in the west. I have an ancestor from the 1800s who was a child bride, had a child at 10, and just 1, this was the only child marriage I encountered over thousands of years of geneology. Child marriage is an abberation and even if Qur’an, Torat, Injil aren’t explicit about minimum age for marriage, we need to take a cultural stand. This issue kills conversion and credibility so let’s not start talking cultural relativism on it.
The Quran 100% prohibits child marriage. One should not be enamored with culture so much then say that God says and permits so and so when it’s actually one’s culture that does.
Here are the evidences from the Quran:
Unfortunately, much of classical scholarship was not impervious to the influences of its culture and time and has constructed arguably many faulty views in multiple areas.
So you will find many opinions in classical Islamic scholarship permitting such an immoral act.
But a clear reading of the Quran shows that the Quran supports a minimum age of marriage:
> And test the orphans [in your charge] until they reach a marriageable age; then, if you find them to be mature of mind, hand over to them their possessions; and do not consume them by wasteful spending, and in haste, ere they grow up. And let him who is rich abstain entirely [from his ward’s property]; and let him who is poor partake thereof in a fair manner. And when you hand over to them their possessions, let there be witnesses on their behalf – although none can take count as God does
>
> Quran 4:6
The verse above shows that the Quran acknowledges that one should be analyzed to have maturity (rushd) once they have reached marriageable age (nikaha).
In Islam, when a woman gets married, she has the right to a Mahr, a bridal gift, from the husband she’ll marry. This Mahr will completely be her own property and wealth, and the what Mahr is and how much it’ll be will be entirely her choice:
> And give unto women their marriage portions in the spirit of a gift; but if they, of their own accord, give up unto you aught thereof, then enjoy it with pleasure and good cheer
>
> Quran 4:4
So, the woman that will marry will receive a Mahr, bridal gift, from her husband and must have the ability to manage it since it’ll be a part of her wealth. That means, the woman that is getting married must have gained maturity (Rushd), which is the condition required for managing wealth according to verse 4:6 mentioned above.
Also, in Q. 65:4 that you’ve mentioned, “nisai” refers to “women”, “bint” or another word would be for “girl”. So Q. 65:4 is talking about women of marriageable age and those that haven’t menstruated would refer to women who have certain medical conditions or problems that is causing irregular menstruation cycles.
I would caution you to be careful in speaking for Allah (swt).
Taking a quranist approach does this just as much as those who juxtapose hadith as authority along with Qur’an.
Usually Quranist or Qur’an centric are lackadaisical in their approach to the text.
For example doing what you did and taking totally unrelated text that speak to different context.
“And test the ORPHANS [in your charge] until they reach a marriageable age…”
Why does everyone ignore that word ORPHAN?
At best you are taking an interpretative approach to the Qur’an and coming up to with conclusions based upon analogy. For example the Hanafi school is fond of this approach. Although it is not limited to them.
A Dhahiri approach to this text would be to understand that we are talking about the more vulnerable women. Orphans and orphans are assumed to not have any kin to be their guardians.
So what happens today is that people want to make Aisha (r.a) 18. Let us say we do that.
18 and 55 is still quite cringe in much of the world.
Again (evolution) if we were to leave other considerations aside.
When mother nature determines that a female starts to have eggs (menstration) she can have a child. That is basic science.
Second, the Bible does not give an age that a person can get married. Neither does the Qur’an. It uses generic references and allows local culture/customs to determine what best suits them.
It is post modern sensibilities that have this skewed.
Lastly, your understanding and interpretation would mean that women who have mental disorders should not get married. Your interpretation could alienate millions of men and women who struggle with an array of mental disorders.
What are these “test” who determines them? Based upon what criteria?
So yeah the classical understanding doesn’t always hit the nail on the head but after much thought and deliberation I stand with them on it.
Because the alternatives are to assert something as being from Allah (swt) when it is not.
Whimsical interpretation where 18 becomes the magic number of Aisha (ra) which just so happens with many countries of age of consent.
Japan age of consent was 14 until very recent, and in Singapore it is still 16.
How about a 16 year old and a 55 year old?
So do not worry about people and their preferences.
Allah (swt) knows best.
I’m not saying Q. 4:6 is explicitly setting a minimum age of marriage. I’m saying it acknowledges that there is a “Marriageable age” which is a correct observation. And the “Marriageable age” (nikaha) is associated with Sound judgement (rushd). Which in then is associated with giving a person (an orphan in this case) their property. Even if they weren’t an orphan, no one is going to gift property and wealth to a kid and expect them to manage it.
Then from that reasoning, we see that a wife has to manage her mahr as it is her right. I believe she also has the right to adjudicate the responsibility she trusts as well but the decision is hers.
I was also right about the Arabic words regarding 65:4 so that cannot be used either to defend child marriage.
“Exceptions do not violate rule.” Some very rare instances of extremely mentally ill women to the point where they cannot handle basic wealth doesn’t go against my argument. We need to be honest here and admit that these people will likely never get married. Some extremely mentally ill women and men leave with their parents for their entire lives.
There is no way ever that God and the Mercy to Mankind, Prophet Muhammad SAW, permitted having sexual relations with a prepubescent female which is essentially what you’re defending in this article despite having posted other articles claiming Aisha was older.
I do understand that the “marriageable age” changes by culture, country, and time period. But throughout all of history, the vast majority of people married 12+ and there is a general pattern and agreement historically that the body must at least be physically mature before marriage. But never has it been acceptable for a prepubescent child, male or female, to engage in sexual intercourse under any pretext and the truth from God wouldn’t consider such a crime as morally acceptable.
And scientifically and anthropologically speaking, females would reach menarche at a later age in the past throughout history and it is also typical of females to reach menarche at a later age if they were raised in a stressful environment. The average age range of menarche throughout Mediaeval and Ancient societies was between 12 to 14 years of age.
Also, adding on to my other response to this comment. I’m not a Quranist.
“I’m not saying Q. 4:6 is explicitly setting a minimum age of marriage. I’m saying it acknowledges that there is a “Marriageable age” which is a correct observation. And the “Marriageable age” (nikaha) is associated with Sound judgement (rushd). Which in then is associated with giving a person (an orphan in this case) their property.”
Again, Jacob fear Allah and do not say what Allah (swt) has not explicitly said.
“I’m saying it acknowledges that there is a “Marriageable age” Interestingly you put ‘marriageable age’ in the commas. It is not saying anything about how many solar rotations a person has performed. Rather you all want it to be 18 solar rotations or 17 or even 21. It is also not saying anything at all about sound judgement in connection with marriages. It is saying something about sound judgement in connection to marriage with orphans.
Maybe it helps if you and I have a common definition of an orphan. I would say that it is someone who has no one to really look out for her interest. I don’t know your conception of family but what I have seen and observed is that Muslims typically vet candidates. They look at the background of each. The families are close to each other.
Also let us be honest here. Who guarantees the rights of the woman even if she is 18, 21 or 40? The courts! Also, if you or I had a daughter who was married to an abusive man do we sit on the sidelines? Absolutely not.
So, the emphasis regarding dealing justly with the orphans is there. You are simply using analogical reasoning. That is fine but is its not definitive. It is an interpretation.
wa-allai ya-is’na mina l-mahidi (menstruation) min nisakum (women) ini ir’tabtum fa-iddatuhunna thalathatu ashhurin.
Yes, that is correct. The Qur’an 65:4 uses the word menstruation with the word nisa (women). Exactly my point. Menses’ =she is a woman.
“There is no way ever that God and the Mercy to Mankind, Prophet Muhammad SAW, permitted having sexual relations with a prepubescent female which is essentially what you’re defending in this article despite having posted other articles claiming Aisha was older.”
We need to refrain from emotions Jacob. They do not define proof text for us. Yes, in my other articles and was full of emotion as you are using. Than upon really looking at the text of the Qur’an and doing introspection I realized my error.
“I do understand that the “marriageable age” changes by culture, country, and time period. But throughout all of history, the vast majority of people married 12+ and there is a general pattern and agreement historically that the body must at least be physically mature before marriage. But never has it been acceptable for a prepubescent child, male or female, to engage in sexual intercourse under any pretext and the truth from God wouldn’t consider such a crime as morally acceptable.”
Please also refrain from straw manning and introducing things that I never defended. I said simply put as the Qur’an connects in 65:4 menstruations with the word woman.
I have stated we can approach this from two ways. 1. Religion is just a big fat juicy lie and Darwinian /Lamarkian Evolution is true. Therefore, once a female, primate or human has menses she can technically speaking get pregnant. That is mother nature that is evolution case closed.
2. When dealing with Jews or Christians very very simple. Show us the correct number of solar rotations one must complete, (aka their age) before getting married?
“And scientifically and anthropologically speaking, females would reach menarche at a later age in the past throughout history and it is also typical of females to reach menarche at a later age if they were raised in a stressful environment. The average age range of menarche throughout Mediaeval and Ancient societies was between 12 to 14 years of age.”
I would be ever so happy to allow scientific peer reviewed journals weigh in on when a female gets her menses. The point being as per Qur’an 65:4 it connects the word nisa (woman) to menses. Simply put a female becomes a woman when she has her menses, be it 12 or 14 etc.
I have NEVER argued for prepubescent marriages. Show me where I have or apologizes. That is the descent thing to do.
I have a question—what if a girl has gotten puberty but is still physically unable to bear a child due to her hips and cervical canal not fully developing yet? I got puberty at 8 but I was not grown enough until around 14 to be able to mentally and physically be prepared for a healthy pregnancy. Even though girls may get their cycles at young ages, intercourse can actually kill or mutilate the girl permanently due to puberty being a process that takes a few years to finish rather than being an instant change. Is there a ruling that protects girls who may have their cycle but are still not physically able to handle sex without extreme trauma (or whose hips have not widened enough for safe childbirth)?
Dear Ruth thank you for your question.
1st and foremost a female in our school must give her consent to get married.
2nd in Islam we have what is called:
Ad-Darooriyyaat Al-Khams-The Five Basic Necessities that are protected and recognized by the Islamic law (shari’ah).
Protection and sanctity of ones:
Life
Religion
Wealth
Lineage
Mind (intellect)
So your point would come under #1 preservation of life.
3rd. Let us say that human beings on AVERAGE live to be 100 years of age. We know that is not the case. The more reasonable number would be 80 years of age. However let us say that the average is 100.
One day I hope you will get to travel around the world, and in particular Muslim countries. Do you know that I CANNOT even count on one hand the number of Muslim men I personally know who is married to a woman under the age of 20 let alone 14 or 9! The reason that I CANNOT count on one hand the number of Muslim men I personally know who are married to a woman under the age of 20 is because that number is 0. I know 0 Muslim men married to a woman under the age of 20, let alone 14 or 9!
So 20 of 100 is 20% of one’s lifespan. This whole issue has been making a mountain out of an ant mound. In fact if such marriages take place wherein there is considered to be age disparity you would hear about it all over the news as if an airplane went down in the Pacific ocean!
Now straight to your question:
“Even though girls may get their cycles at young ages, intercourse can actually kill or mutilate the girl permanently due to puberty being a process that takes a few years to finish rather than being an instant change. Is there a ruling that protects girls who may have their cycle but are still not physically able to handle sex without extreme trauma (or whose hips have not widened enough for safe childbirth.”
The answer to that is yes! Such a female would not be considered to be for marriage.
The one thing that makes a person mukhalif (accountable) in Islam for both males and females is puberty. That’s it. You need to start doing your prayers on time, learning the basics of your faith etc.
That is why Islam does not put some artificial number, like 18 solar rotations before a person can get married. No.
We all have different heights, weight classes and as you rightly pointed out internal development as well.
Apologies for the long winded response, I do hope it is helpful.
There are also two other points I want to mention in relation to the oral reports or oral transmissions where we hear that Ayesha (ra) was such and such an age
when she got married.
1) lone narrator reports in Arabic are called ahad dhani (ahad =one and dhani=speculative). Which means there is a probability that the report
does not convey certainty. This is why in our school we do not rely upon such reports to convey issues of theology or creed.
Even in 2024 there are women from Philippines, Indonesia, Myanmar right, they go to work as domestic helpers in other countries. Some of them do not know the
day they were born. Some of these countries (not to put any nation in a bad light) they came from villages, they were not big on census taking, birth records etc…
2) The placement of the number 0. Now obviously people visually knew what 10 camels were or 100 men etc. Yet, the 0 was brought over from India and introduced
to the middle east then to the rest of the world. How were people counting their 10s, 100s and 1000s?