“Then if you were to dispute among yourselves about anything refer it to Allah and the Messenger if you indeed believe in Allah and the Last Day; that is better and more commendable in the end.”(Qur’an 4:59)
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Insh’Allah today we will be looking at the claims of Ustadh Abdurrahman Hassan, and Shaykh Hamza Yusuf. Both of them claim to follow the Sunni denomination of Islam. They both claim that the Qur’an is uncreated and yet both of them have very different understandings of what this actually means.
Let us start with what Shaykh Hamza Yusuf (An Ashar’i in creed) said here:
Shaykh Hamza Yusuf is gracious in saying that among the Sunni denomination there is a division on this issue. They are not in unison as to this theological position.
This is something that Ustadh Abdurrahman Hassan is not in agreement upon. Ustadh Abdurrahman’s view is that there is one and only one view only among the Sunni denomination.
@ 1:32 Listen carefully people. Shaykh Hamza Yusus if a public orator and a supremely articulate man. Listen very carefully to the doctrine you are being asked to subscribe to.
“But the Mushaf itself and the ‘ulemah say you can only say this in a teaching just out of adaab to the Qur’an we don’t say it. But the Mushaf itself is, came into the world. The paper, the ink, the right? and then the letters and when we and if I say, “bismillah ir rahman ir raheem, al hamdulillahi rabil ‘alamin, ir rahman ir raheem.” Those are sounds. And we know that you know that they have vibrations and so…that aspect of the Qur’an and this is the distinction they say is all of those elements are created and like….”
@ 3:00 “It definitely doesn’t mean though the mushaf you have in your house. Because that would then…I mean some of the Christians argue that well the Qur’an is imbibliation. Like we believe in incarnation of the logos the Muslims believe in imbibliation of the logos. That God became book and so we don’t we don’t see that as valid. That view of it so.”
Did you notice in the first paragraph above how Shaykh Hamza said that the mushaf of the Qur’an is created. However, he said it very very softly and quickly moved on from that word ‘created’. I am sure that you the discerning truth seeker have realized this.
Every Qur’an that every Muslim uses today has a publisher. For example the ‘Sahih International’ is published by the Publishing House (dar), dar Abul Qasim, Saudi Arabia.
If the book, ink, text has a publisher it is clear as day light that the text, or mushaf is created. Now, I am going to advise you, the Christian, the Jew, the Hindu, the Buddhist, the Taoist, the Sikh, the Jain, the Wiccan, the Agnostic, the Atheist, ask any Muslim preacher who is calling you to Islam the following:
“Is that book, the text, the Mushaf, the ink pages is it created?” The simple , correct, direct answer is ‘Yes!’.
If that Muslim preacher begins to waffle, doge, sidestep or respond with anything other than ‘Yes!; My advise to you is to ask yourself some questions.
What are they really calling you to believe in? The belief in the oneness of Allah, that he is eternal and is unlike his creation? Yet they cannot say that an obvious creation (a book, a text with ink and pages) is created?
So now let us come to the video by Ustadh Abdurrahman Hassan (An Athari in creed)
Now Ustadh Abdurrahman Hassan who also claims to be of the Sunni denomination has a vastly different understanding of what it means to say that the Qur’an is uncreated than does Shaykh Hamza Yusuf.
First Ustadh Abdurrahman Hassan first appeals to emotion by discussing the persecution that those who claimed the Qur’an was uncreated went through. Though he doesn’t’ mention that his side did the exact same thing.
@ 2:50 Ustadh Abdurrahman Hassan says that the Ashar’i affirm the speech that is present in Allah (swt). They affirm that speech is an attribute of Allah (swt).
Now listen very carefully to what Ustadh Abdurrahman Hassan declares. His major point of contention.
“The Qur’an that we have today that is that we are reading, making our children memorize, who we read in weddings, if we want to make a person make an oath we make them use this Qur’an, swear by this Qur’an they believe it’s makhluq!“
His very intelligent friend ask him, “Are they talking about the papers the mushaf?”
To which Ustadh Abdurrahman replies: “Shahid the Qur’an that we are reading, whole entire Qur’an is makhluq to the Ashar’i“
There you have it people! Ustadh Abdurrahman is upset that people believe that a book, the Qur’an with ink, pages proclaim that it is created. So he wants that book, those pages, that ink, an obviously created thing to share a quality belongs ONLY to Allah (swt).
ONLY Allah (swt) is uncreated and everything else is uncreated. This is obvious as obvious can be.
@5:42 “The Ahshar’i don’t consider this (pointing to a Mushaf) to be the kalam of Allah.“
Ustadh Abdurrahman’s daleel backfires!
Listen carefully to this next section. The brother who sits across from Ustadh Abdurrahman has been given a keen intellect and mash’Allah he picked up on the problem straight away! To the point that Ustadh Abdurrahman realized it was a strong point against him so he quickly pivots to ‘all the other evidences’.
He said: “O my Lord, set for me a sign.” Said He: “Your sign is that you shall not be able to speak to people for three days except through gestures. Remember your Lord much; and proclaim His purity in the evening and the morning.” (Qur’an 3: 41)
@12:35 “But your saying pointing is not speech.” -to which Ustadh Abdurrahman says, “It’s not.” the brother responds, “Allah says, illa ramzan put it with speech.” “illa?” replies Ustaz.
The brother states: “Ramzan in the ayat that you recited he’s put it with speech. You will not speak except with ramzan, with pointing.”
To which Ustaz replied: “Allah is saying you Zakariah will not be able to speak except Allah will allow you to give sharah.” To which the brother replies again: ” That means that’ is the speech that you’re allowed to . You’re not allowed to speak. It’s like if I say for example. Everyone leave the room except…”
Mash’Allah.
“And the people of Moses, after his departure from their ornaments a calf-an image having a lowing sound. Did they not see that it could not speak to them nor guide them to a way? That they took it for worship, and they were the wrongdoers. (Qur’an 7:148)
“And he extracted for them the statue of a calf which had a lowing sound, and they said, “This is your god and the god of Moses, but he forgot.” (Qur’an 20:88)
Just because something produces a sound does not mean it can speak.
May Allah (swt) guide them all to the truth of the matter.
For those who want to read more on the issue of rather or not the Qur’an is created:
https://primaquran.com/2022/10/04/lets-attack-hamza-yusuf-in-ramadan-the-quran-is-created/
For those interested to read more about Shaykh Hamza Yusuf you are invited to take a look at the following:
https://primaquran.com/2022/10/04/shaykh-hamza-yusuf-collection-of-articles/
May Allah Guide the Ummah.
May Allah Forgive the Ummah.
Prima Quran 
Ashari have opinion on kalaam of Allah that is commonly believed as strange because when you use logic to understand the nature of Allah there are strange things that come out but they believe kalam Allah is not created simple
I believe what is in Qur’an itself that it is kalamullah and that’s it
Allah kalaam in a way that is suitable to his majesty
A simple question is – according to you is the person who believes that Qur’an the kalamullah is increased will be in hell fire for eternity?
“Ashari have opinion on kalaam of Allah that is commonly believed as strange because when you use logic to understand the nature of Allah there are strange things that come out but they believe kalam Allah is not created simple.”
Well as an Hanbali/Athari Sunni Muslim it maybe easy for you to say this about Maliki/Ashari Sunni Muslims or Shafi’i/Ashari Sunni Muslims but they have their own response to your statements.
The point is they know full well that the book , ink and recitation is created by the hands and tongues of men.
The Ashari would have NEVER done the following to Imam Bukhari:
Also:
Al-Hakim [narrated with his chains]: Muhammad ibn Yahya [al-Dhuhli] said: “This Bukhari has openly subscribed to the doctrine of ‘pronunciationists’ (al-lafziyya), and for me those are worse than the Jahmiyya.” . . . Ahmad ibn Salama visited Bukhari and told him: “O Abu ‘Abd Allah, this is a respected man [i.e. al-Dhuhli] in Khurasan, especially in this town [Naysabur], and he has thundered with this speech until none of us can say anything to him about it, so what do you think we should do?” Bukhari grasped his beard then he said: (I confide my cause unto Allah. Lo! Allah is Seer of His slaves.) (40:44) He continued: “O Allah! You know that I did not want for one moment to settle in Naysabur out of arrogance, nor in quest of leadership, but only because my soul would not let me return to my own country [Bukhara] because of my opponents; and now this man intends harm for me out of jealousy, only because of what Allah gave me and for no other reason.” Then he said to me: “O Ahmad, tomorrow I shall leave and you will be rid of his talk which I caused.” . . . Muhammad ibn Ya‘qub the hadith master said: “When al-Bukhari settled in Naysabur Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj took to visiting him frequently. When the affair of the pronunciation of Qur’an took place between al-Bukhari and [al-Dhuhli] and the latter roused people against him and forbade them to visit him, most people stopped visiting him, but not Muslim. Then al-Dhuhli said: ‘Anyone that subscribes to the pronunciation [being created], it is not permitted for them to attend our gathering.’ Whereupon Muslim placed a cloak on top of his turban, stood up in front of everyone, and sent back to al-Dhuhli what he had written from him carried by a camel-driver, for Muslim openly subscribed to the pronunciation and made no attempt to conceal it.” . . . Ahmad ibn Mansur al-Shirazi also narrated it from Muhammad ibn Ya‘qub, adding: “And Ahmad ibn Salama stood up and followed him.” (See Al-Dhahabi, Siyar (10:314-315). Cf. Bayhaqi’s al-Asma’ wa al-Sifat (al-Hashidi ed. 2:20-21 #591).
The Hanbali would do this not the Ashari.
You ever seen the video circulating online of the little girl reading the New Testament and she reads the verse: “Jesus learned more and more about God.”
I don’t know the translation she was reading but this is from Luke 2:52 You can see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGVYvEphxfk
The point is that the fitra and mantiq of this child came to life and Allah (swt) gave her something powerful.
If I was to ask that little girl if a book, recitation of a book, ink, tablet were forever existing, being recited what do you think her reaction will be?
Yet this is the frightening type of theology that your school produces.
“A simple question is – according to you is the person who believes that Qur’an the kalamullah is increased will be in hell fire for eternity?”
So I believe I have been fair in answering your questions so let me respond to this question with a few questions of my own.
Because I believe here you are trying to play with passions and emotions.
1) Question does a kafir go to hell forever or do they come out of hell and eventually enjoy paradise?
If your answer is yes what is your evidence for it?
2) I believe the Qur’an is created therefore am I and all who believe it is created kafir?
For example this SALAFI website says:
https://www.salafi-dawah.com/ruling-on-claiming-that-the-quran-was-created.html
““Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal stated in his book [Al-Sunnah]: “The Qur’an is the Words of Allah, not created. So, whoever claims that the Qur’an is created is a Jahmite (a follower of Jahmiyyah, which is a deviant Islamic sect denying some Attributes of Allah, claiming they are ascribed to people and cannot be ascribed to Allah), and a Kafir (disbeliever).”
“Accordingly, the Qur’an is the Word of Allah that is not created, and whoever says that it is created is a Kafir (disbeliever).”
As well as:
Sufyān Ath-Thawrī said, “The Qurān is the speech of Allāh (azza wa jall) and he who says that it is created then he is a kāfir, and he who doubts in his kufr then he is a kāfir.” [Abdullāh Ibn Al-Imām Ahmad in Kitāb As-Sunnaah, 20]
The Maliki jurist Qadi Iyad says the following:
He said about someone who said that the Qur’an is created, “He is an unbeliever, so kill him.” He said in the version of Ibn Nafi’, “He should be flogged and painfully beaten and imprisoned until he repents.” In the version of Bishr ibn Bakr at-Tinnisi we find, “He is killed and his repentance is not accepted.” (Qadi ‘Iyad Musa al-Yahsubi, Muhammad Messenger of Allah (Ash-Shifa of Qadi ‘Iyad), translated by Aisha Abdarrahman Bewley [Madinah Press, Inverness, Scotland, U.K. 1991; third reprint, paperback], p. 419)
So let us see if you are fair and Allah (swt) knows best.
https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:2884
Narrated ‘Abdullah bin Mas’ud:
“Allah has not created in the heavens nor in the earth what is more magnificent than Ayat Al-Kursi.” Sufyan said: “Because Ayat Al-Kursi is the Speech of Allah, and Allah’s Speech is greater than Allah’s creation of the heavens and the earth.”
So here you have the great companion of the Blessed Messenger (saw) saying that Ayat Al Kursi is created.
Going to call him a jahmite? Going to come up with a metaphorical interpretation?
Who knows better him or you?
By the way the sunnah.com website used to have the hadith without the commentary by Sufyan but it looks like they edited it or deleted it…quite crafty.
So before I engage with you on anything else let us be very clear on these points so that we do not try and use double standards or use the emotions with people.
1) Does a Kafir go to hell and do they stay there in forever or are they eventually released and enjoy the fruits of the paradise. (basically they go to hell for “awhile” like Sunni Muslims believe about sinful Muslims) so basically they are in the same boat.
2) If I say that the Qur’an is created as Allah (swt) has clearly said so:
“Indeed, We have made it an Arabic Qur’an that you might understand.” (Qur’an 43:3)
Am I a kafir? So that I go to hell (for a while/or forever)
Once you answer these questions inshAllah I will continue with you.
By the way if you give your e-mail address you are most welcome to join our WhatsApp group in the Arabic language with teachers and those who have access to scholars and they can happily answer your questions insh’Allah.
I am sorry I am not that fluent in Arabic language i am learning i will be unable to join WhatsApp group
Answer 1- Kafir remains in hell forever
Answer 2- scholars have been very harsh on this issue because of reasons not worth taking into this conversation main point is anyone who believes in whatever is mentioned in Qur’an with open heart is a Muslim anyone who search for truth and get it is
One who believes Qur’an is created is ______ i don’t know there is difference of opinion i don’t want to get into it
Scholars who believe that –are kafir– say that every created thing has defect if Qur’an is created it has defect and anyone believes that Qur’an has defect is a kafir and will be in hell fire forever
And it’s in Qur’an that Allah refer to this book as kalamullah
[9:6] And if anyone from the polytheists asks for your protection ˹O Prophet˺, grant it to them so they may hear the Word of Allah..”
If you reject saying Qur’an is kalamullah then you reject a verse of Qur’an if you reject a verse of Qur’an you are a kafir and you will be in hell fire forever
This is the strongest argument i have heard from scholars other scholars however says that if someone does not reach to the conclusion as in these two cases then they can be considered muslim
I am asking you the question because I am not a alim but I assume you have access to great alim of ibadism if they believe that I will be in hell forever then this is a serious issue then I will try my best to get to conclusion and being clear on what I belive until then I belive that I don’t have to go into such minute details and nature of Allah how he speaks when we speak it is vibration if Allah speaks it’s not vibration what is it Allah spoke to moses did Allah speaks Arabic what language did Allah taught to adam
Do you think that Qur’an came to answer these questions will allah ask you this question on day of judgment but as mentioned in Qur’an “That is a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do.” 2:141
Scholars have indulged in these issues for that time and alhamdulillah we can benefit from it if some non muslim asks question regarding it we can answer it (as Christians do) by saying that scholars have mentioned we don’t have to answer it by saying this is our belief as simple as that.
And just for answering the verse you mentioned says we have made it a Arabic Qur’an (I am not a scholar in Arabic) but in any language even in English it is quite clear that Allah is simply not saying about Qur’an but to refute the saying of quraish who says why it is not in any other language
Like if I say i have made my words in Arabic so that you can understand that does not in anyway mean i have created my words khalaqa when used in different scenarios can mean different things
If I say i have made my thinking in accordance with you to reach a conclusion that doesn’t mean i have created my thinking
In contrast if we take the verses mentioning Qur’an as kalamullah it is clear that they are hard to interprete in other way
May Allah make us from the people of paradise
May Allah protect us from hell fire Ameen
“Answer 1- Kafir remains in hell forever
Answer 2- scholars have been very harsh on this issue because of reasons not worth taking into this conversation main point is anyone who believes in whatever is mentioned in Qur’an with open heart is a Muslim anyone who search for truth and get it is
One who believes Qur’an is created is ______ i don’t know there is difference of opinion i don’t want to get into it.”
Thank you for your honest response.
As regards the last part of it:
“_ i don’t know there is difference of opinion i don’t want to get into it.”
I am sorry but I do not believe that part because here you are and you are indeed “getting into it.”
So it is clear from those scholars that because I believe the Qur’an is created as it clearly says that it is than I am a kafir and you have established that a kafir is someone who goes to hell forever.
So let us imagine that some Salafi/Athari tried to get the people through emotions and passions and not through proofs and evidences and this person said:
“You know those Ibadi scholars say that if you believe in x, y and z and you die upon it you will be a kafir in hell forever!”
So it’s o.k for Imam Ahmed and others to say that about me and us but it is not o.k for our scholars to say the same?
The Qur’an is created as it clearly states that it is here:
““Indeed, We have made it an Arabic Qur’an that you might understand.” (Qur’an 43:3)
“Scholars who believe that –are kafir– say that every created thing has defect if Qur’an is created it has defect and anyone believes that Qur’an has defect is a kafir and will be in hell fire forever.”
Scholars can be right or wrong in their assumptions.
For example where in the Qur’an or the Sunnah does it say that everything has a defect?
Allah (swt) created a perfect or an imperfect universe?
Did those scholars discover a flaw in Allah’s plan? Authubillah, May Allah (swt) protect us from the evil ones!
Notice again they are not using proof text but they are using mantiq (logic) and using (kalaam) you did not quote from the Qur’an or from the Sunnah.
Where do we learn that the Angel Gabriel (as) is imperfect?
Where do we learn that the Prophet Muhammed (saw) is imperfect?
Where do we learn that?
In fact did you know that is the very Sunni scholars whose arguments fall back on them. If you read the article you will see that.
“We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better (bikhayrin) than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?” (Qur’an 2:106)
Abrogation is omission, removal and it is impossible for that which is eternal. The idea that some part of Allah’s essence of ‘speech‘ would be ‘better‘ than other parts merits pensive reflection.
You also have this very interesting statement here: https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:2884
Narrated ‘Abdullah bin Mas’ud:
“Allah has not CREATED in the heavens nor in the earth what is more magnificent than AYAT AL KURSI.” Sufyan said: “Because Ayat Al-Kursi is the Speech of Allah, and Allah’s Speech is greater than Allah’s creation of the heavens and the earth.”
So here you have Ibn Masud (ra) who is more knowledgeable than you or I or any of our scholars putting the verse of the Qur’an in the category of the created things. However, Sufyan adds something that Ibn Masud (ra) did not say.
He is claiming that the reason why this created thing is better than other created things is because it is the speech of Allah??
That is the believe of the Jahmi is it not?
“If you reject saying Qur’an is kalamullah then you reject a verse of Qur’an if you reject a verse of Qur’an you are a kafir and you will be in hell fire forever.”
So as we have established the Qur’an says in two places that it is kalaamAllah
We also established that in two places that it claims that it is the word of other than Allah (swt).
Other wise I could ask you that do you believe that the Qur’an is the words of OTHER THAN ALLAH as clearly mentioned in the Qur’an?
إِنَّهُۥ لَقَوۡلُ رَسُولࣲ كَرِیمࣲ
Qur’an 69:40
Which is translated in English (so that others can follow along) as:
Sahih International: [That] indeed, the Qur’an is the word of a noble Messenger.
Pickthall: That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger.
Yusuf Ali: That this is verily the word of an honoured messenger;
Shakir: Most surely, it is the Word brought by an honored Messenger,
Muhammad Sarwar: because the Quran is certainly the word of a reverent messenger.
Mohsin Khan: That this is verily the word of an honoured Messenger [i.e. Jibrael (Gabriel) or Muhammad SAW which he has brought from Allah].
Arberry: it is the speech of a noble Messenger.
& the following:
إِنَّهُۥ لَقَوۡلُ رَسُولࣲ كَرِیمࣲ
Qur’an 81:19
Which has been translated in English as:
Sahih International: [That] indeed, the Qur’an is a word [conveyed by] a noble messenger
Pickthall: That this is in truth the word of an honoured messenger,
Yusuf Ali: Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger,
Shakir: Most surely it is the Word of an honored messenger,
Muhammad Sarwar: that the Quran is the word of the honorable angelic, mighty Messenger
Mohsin Khan: Verily, this is the Word (this Quran brought by) a most honourable messenger [Jibrael (Gabriel), from Allah to the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)].
We also established that is created:
““Indeed, We have made it an Arabic Qur’an that you might understand.” (Qur’an 43:3).”
So now the point is how do we understand all of this.
We cannot pretend that each side does not have their justifications for their positions.
“I am asking you the question because I am not a alim but I assume you have access to great alim of ibadism if they believe that I will be in hell forever then this is a serious issue then I will try my best to get to conclusion and being clear on what I belive.”
I am not an alim either. I am a layman and a student, just to be clear. You are neither speaking to a learned Ibadi nor a scholar or even a representative of the school. This is why I have offered and will now offer you again (as you mention Arabic is not for you) that you can be added to the English WhatsApp group if you are sincerely wanting to know more about the school.
We have also established that Sunni scholars claim that anyone who says the Qur’an is created is a kafir and we have established that a kafir is in hellfire forever.
I have not come across any good reasons to believe that the Qur’an is uncreated and/or eternal.
1) The Qur’an is clear it is created.
2) Let us say for the sake of argument that I was not an Ibadi and I took the position that some of Allah’s attributes are created, like in the hadith of Ibn Masud (where Sufyan injected this position)
That would mean that I would believe in essential attributes and non essential attributes.
It would be no more a strange thing to believe than saying Allah (swt) has attributes that are identical to his essence nor other than his essence. A quasi-status.
Think about it! If I am going to get in BIG SUNNI KALAAM TROUBLE because I do not say that Allah (swt) has an attribute of speech, yet even if I affirmed it I cannot say that the attribute is Allah. Than what is it?
Oh I remember, the quasi, pseudo belief that brings into question Tawhid itself namely:
“The attribute is not other than than the essence nor is it the essence.”
Something you didn’t seem to want to discuss at all. Yet, Ibn Taymiyyah used this and it is not from the Qur’an nor the Sunnah. If it was you would be quick to cite it.
But if someone came back and said, “Yeah but the scholars the scholars said the scholars said!” That is not Qur’an and Sunnah, that is scholars said.”
As you rightly stated about atoms and 1% of universe and the soul, who are we to say what is and is not for the dhat(being) of Allah (swt)?
In fact Athari Aqidah could very well accommodate process theology. dhat -translated as being could be understood as “becoming” and would better explain what looks like apparent contradictory claims about Allah (swt) in your theology. Allah (swt) is in a place, and yet comes and goes etc….
What do you think Ibrahim (as) was trying to establish here?
“He answered: “Rather it was this supreme one who has done it. So ask them, if they can speak
Thereupon they turned to their (inner) selves and said (to themselves): “Surely it is you who are the wrong-doers.”
Then their minds were turned upside down,61 and they said: “You know well that they do not speak.
(Qur’an 21:63-65)
Do you think he (Ibrahim) alayhi salam was trying to establish that Allah (swt) speaks with letters and sounds? Why else make that argument against the idols?
You quoted this out of context:
““That is a nation which has passed on. It will have [the consequence of] what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do.” 2:141
Every nation and people are responsible for what their own hands have done. However, we most certainly investigate the aqidah claims of groups.
So if a Christian says to me, “Yes Jesus is God?” I should just accept it? No.
So likewise when Salafi/Athari/Hanbali come and say this or that we have the right to investigate these claims.
And you will find them quick to use the very things they speak against (kalaam, mantiq) etc.
“And just for answering the verse you mentioned says we have made it a Arabic Qur’an (I am not a scholar in Arabic) but in any language even in English it is quite clear THAT ALLAH IS SIMPLY NOT SAYING ABOUT QUR’AN that Allah is simply not saying about Qur’an but to refute the saying of quraish who says why it is not in any other language.”
That is clear you do not understand Arabic and don’t worry because even those who claim they do also allow their aqidah to dictate what the clear meaning says.
“THAT ALLAH IS SIMPLY NOT SAYING ABOUT QUR’AN.”
No, Allah (swt) is saying about the Qur’an.
“Indeed, We have made it an Arabic Qur’an that you might understand.”
See it is clear. I don’t need to respond to you with a question like: “Well, if the Qur’an is not Arabic what is it than?” Because it is clear that the Qur’an is in Arabic and it was made as Allah (swt) clearly says and those who reject the clear ayats as Allah (swt) says, such are the ungrateful (kafir).
Since you are using English as your example let me just inform you about it, as I am very fluent in the language. No disrespect intended.
“Like if I say i have MADE my words in Arabic so that you can understand that does not in anyway mean i have CREATED my words khalaqa when used in different scenarios can mean different things.”
Kindly do the following. Type the word “made synonym” in google:
What is the result?
construct
build
assemble
put together
manufacture
produce
fabricate
CREATE
form
fashion
model
mould
shape
forge
bring into existence.
Though I would be happy with any of those words. It is clear that is made. So since that is clear we need to understand what does it mean by kalaamallah -speech of Allah (used twice) and word of Messenger (Gabriel/Muhammed-saw) used twice.
I also certainly do not believe that Jesus (as) is an eternal creation of Allah (swt) either.
“And the angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: Allah gives you glad tidings of (a son whose name is) John, (who comes) to confirm A WORD (bikalimatin) from Allah lordly, chaste, a prophet of the righteous. (Qur’an 3:39)
To believe that Jesus (as) is Allah’s created word is eman and Islam.
To believe that Jesus (as) is Allah’s uncreated word is shirk and kufr without doubt.
“May Allah make us from the people of paradise May Allah protect us from hell fire Ameen!”
Amin!
Again we have a WhatsApp group in English you are welcome to join as well.
” if someone does not reach to the conclusion as in these two cases then they can be considered muslim” i said
But you ignored it
By the way
No two word have exact similar meaning but I am not here to learn English or teach it
I want answer that what are some of my beliefs that can lead me to hellfire forever
I tried to say that using a word like made or let’s use the word created doesn’t mean that I created something in meaning you are referring khalaqa when used in different scenarios can mean different things (you seem to ignore this sentence) created when used in different scenarios can mean different things like i made my mind mind synonym is brain i need brain to make brain how can I make brain no human has created his own brain hope u understand
I am sorry but I have to ignore some point to be on point ( and ‘point’ on these two occasion means differently)
Verses that were revealed than they become mansukh
This whole process was best verses were revealed for the time then they were taken back Allah give something better that can mean to give something better for time to come remember that was the time when sahaba will be the next generation that will propagate islam they were being prepared so they were deserving of some special treatment
We many times have to do what we didn’t want ‘I don’t want to get into it’ didn’t at first glance it looks like I think we should not get into discussion another example where ‘want’ can mean different things hope u understand there words that are used but not in the same meaning
Is there even a single verse in Qur’an where Allah mentions Qur’an is made it says we made an Arabic Qur’an when we look at context it is clear what made here means
When at other hand we see verses which mention kalamullah it is clear that they are referring to Qur’an directly
Verses that you mention nobody believes that these are words of prophet do you belive that? We take Qur’an as whole not just a single verse
20:14 it is truly I. I am Allah! There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Me. So worship Me ˹alone˺, and establish prayer for My remembrance
Who is saying this? Are these words of prophet obviously not so the better translation will be conveyed by him
When we look at whole Qur’an it becomes clear that the best interpetation of all ayat is that it is kalamullah and the one who does not believe if his intention is to reject a verse of Qur’an or saying it has defects than he is a kafir who will reside in hell forever but if someone does not believe in the conclusion then he is not being fair with regards to the Qur’an and whether he is kafir or not i don’t know wallahualam
Who said i am athari? We sometimes have to use logic we should not when referring to Allah and just accept what is in Qur’an with regarding to nature of Allah specially
Everything has defect means nothing is perfect like Allah every defect that is in creation is what Allah has willed which together made this world perfect
“” if someone does not reach to the conclusion as in these two cases then they can be considered muslim” i said But you ignored it.”
I don’t know what you think I ignored when it clearly there for all to see. I just wanted to be clear that you said kafir are in hell forever and the scholars say that anyone who says the Qur’an is created is a kafir.
I have seen your daleel (unless you have more) and I don’t believe the Qur’an is the eternal, uncreated word of Allah (swt).
“No two word have exact similar meaning but I am not here to learn English or teach it I want answer that what are some of my beliefs that can lead me to hellfire forever.”
There are so many> so you need to be specific, for example believing that Jesus (as) is God.
We do not need to go to other points as this one is pressing and is not settled among us.
“I tried to say that using a word like made or let’s use the word created doesn’t mean that I created something in meaning you are referring khalaqa when used in different scenarios can mean different things (you seem to ignore this sentence) created when used in different scenarios can mean different things like i made my mind mind synonym is brain i need brain to make brain how can I make brain no human has created his own brain hope u understand
I am sorry but I have to ignore some point to be on point ( and ‘point’ on these two occasion means differently).”
The Qur’an is clear on this matter.
“Indeed, We have made it an Arabic Qur’an that you might understand.”
Why can’t you give us an example from the Qur’an where “jaʿalnāhu” is used of something that is uncreated or not made?
“Verses that were revealed than they become mansukh This whole process was best verses were revealed for the time then they were taken back Allah give something better that can mean to give something better for time to come remember that was the time when sahaba will be the next generation that will propagate islam they were being prepared so they were deserving of some special treatment”
“best verses were revealed for the time then they were taken back Allah give something better.”
You should really reflect upon what you said concerning any belief that the Qur’an is eternal and uncreated.
If the verses were good enough they would not have been withdrawn, which brings me to another point.
Ibadi believe that a) we have the whole Qur’an and b) we have the Qur’an that Allah (swt) intended for us to have.
Do you believe that some of the Qur’an was lost/forgotten? Thus we do not have the whole Qur’an?
“Is there even a single verse in Qur’an where Allah mentions Qur’an is made it says we MADE AN ARABIC QUR’AN when we look at context it is clear what made here means.”
Umm yess in the very sentence you just quoted. I am beginning to wonder what is going on here?
“When at other hand we see verses which mention kalamullah it is clear that they are referring to Qur’an directly.”
So let us cut to the chase here shall we?
You have yet to identify your theological school or sect that you belong to. As I said anonymous is fine, and you know my position so what is yours? Otherwise I may not find it useful to engage.
Secondly, if we go with the flawed reasoning that you gave let us see where it leads.
You earlier tried to make the point that Allah (swt) is perfect and the creation is imperfect. The argument you have (or the ones your teachers gave you to use against us) has the following implications. It is a sort of trap.
They hope the person will respond: “The Qur’an is perfect.” Than you respond: “Than it can’t be the creation.”
So let’s follow this flawed reasoning which actually back fires on your teachers (the ones who give you these type of arguments).
If A =B and B=C than A=C
OK So logic.
Only Allah (swt) is perfect. The Qur’an is perfect therefore the Qur’an is Allah? Astaghfirullah. Authubillah min dhalik!
“Verses that you mention nobody believes that these are words of prophet do you belive that?”
You mean no one believes what the verses clearly say?
So if you quoted for example:
“Do they not see that We have created for them from what Our hands have made, grazing livestock, and then they are their owners?”(Qur’an 36:71)
Now imagine I said “No one believes that Allah created the cattle with hands.”
Is that not bizarre?
So here is where we are equal your belief and my belief.
You quote some verses that have very apparent meaning:
Those two verses are:
“And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.” (Qur’an 9:6)
Those who remained behind will say when you set out toward the war booty to take it, “Let us follow you.” They wish to change the words of Allah. Say, “Never will you follow us. Thus did Allah say before.” So they will say, “Rather, you envy us.” But [in fact] they were not understanding except a little. (Qur’an 48:15)
However, we also have two verses that it is the word from OTHER than Allah (swt).
“[That] indeed, the Qur’an is the word of a noble Messenger.” (Qur’an 69:40)
“Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger.” (Qur’an 81:19)
Allah (swt) says about the Qur’an.
“Then do they not reflect upon the Qur’an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction..” (Qur’an 4:82)
So than what do we do with the ALL this information and not just quote TWO verses and call it a day?
When you state: “We take Qur’an as whole not just a single verse.”
Than do that! Because that is what we are doing.
As regards how do we understand those verses that is explained here:
Well this article explains that:
https://primaquran.com/2022/10/04/quran-created-uncreated-proof-text/
The one you are commenting on. It explains what we in the Ibadi school understand by it. Those who read it have read it and those who have not read it and comment on the matter are among the insincere.
Why would someone (and I am not referring to you in particular Abdullah) but why would anyone make claims about another and say they want to read their literature and know their sources and not read the very articles that are in front of them?
“20:14 it is truly I. I am Allah! There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Me. So worship Me ˹alone˺, and establish prayer for My remembrance Who is saying this? Are these words of prophet obviously not so the better translation will be conveyed by him.”
So are you saying that Musa (as) heard words vibrations letters and sounds?
“so the better translation will be conveyed by him.”
So that is your interpretation and how you understand the text using other text of the Qur’an. Just as we have our interpretation of the text using other text of the Qur’an.
You see it is something we both do.
Allah (swt) created a sound and caused Moses (a.s) to hear that created sound. In fact, if you go on further the whole context shows how Allah (swt) is the creator of perception. Moses (a.s) was made to perceive a burning fire, it did not indicate if anyone saw it or not. He (a.s) was made to perceive his hand becoming white. He (a.s) was made to perceive a voice from a tree. He (a.s) was made to perceive his staff move like a snake.
“And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.” (Qur’an 42:51)
What did Rasul Allah (saw) think when Angel Gabriel (a.s) said. ” Indeed this, your religion, is one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me.” (Qur’an 21:92)
“When we look at whole Qur’an it becomes clear that the best interpetation of all ayat is that it is kalamullah and the one who does not believe if his intention is to reject a verse of Qur’an or saying it has defects than he is a kafir who will reside in hell forever but if someone does not believe in the conclusion then he is not being fair with regards to the Qur’an and whether he is kafir or not i don’t know wallahualam.”
And I believe that total opposite of what you said. I have to wonder your sincerity in the face of such overwhelming evidence.
Your bizarre choices in making an argument and refusal to accept the logical conclusion. Such as only Allah (swt) is perfect and the creation is imperfect thinking that you are laying a trap for someone but you only laid a trap for yourself because if ONLY Allah (swt) is perfect and the Qur’an is perfect than just say that the Qur’an is Allah (swt) or we have to question your sincerity.
Now let me show you a simple logic that does not backfire upon me. Everything other than Allah (swt) is a creation.
So is the Qur’an Allah (swt)? If yes than just be honest.
If no, than it is a creation. khalas.
Actually I have done my part which is to convey the truth to you.
If you or any of your scholars want to debate with our scholars do make sure they are grounded in Arabic. We do not shy away from it.
If you are sincere in wanting to learn about the school provide your email address and can add you to the English speaking group.
Bismillah, other than that I leave you to your devices.
“Say, “Allah has the most conclusive argument. Had it been His Will, He would have easily imposed guidance upon all of you.” (Qur’an 6:149)
I don’t understand why you are referring to same verse again and again when it is clear that it always referred with Arabic Qur’an not directly Qur’an where it means like i made my mind i obviously does not made or created it
Secondly can you please in short comment on 9:6 and 48:15
And where Allah says these are words of prophet it is clear allah is most likely saying how can man who lived with you who you said is noble is lying these are words of noble messenger
Moses was hearing vibration or was he getting something on heart i don’t know do you claim to know that how allah speak? Or does he not even speak then what is meant by kalamullah he ven spoke when there was nothing
2:117– He is the One Who has originated the heavens and the earth, and when He wills to (originate) a thing, He only says to it: ‘Be’, and it becomes.
36:82– All it takes, when He wills something ˹to be˺, is simply to say to it: “Be!” And it is!
and if ‘kun’ is created we need kun for kun to exist we will not exist (you have not answered it earlier)
There was no atoms when he said kun now how he said that wallahualam we believe what he says about himself we don’t question the nature of Allah with our little brains
Mashallah i came here to find something that can challenge what I was believing but alhamdulillah i am more confident after listening to your arguments then I was before
I am learning and inshallah i will continue to learn until my death comes
16:125 “Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.”
Al hamdulillah the beautiful thing about this exchange is people who read it can see where the truth is and who is answering who and who is not answering.
Who is consistent in their theology and in their proofs and arguments and who is inconsistent. Mash’Allah
“I don’t understand why you are referring to same verse again and again when it is clear that it always referred with Arabic Qur’an not directly Qur’an where it means like i made my mind i obviously does not made or created it.”
Because it is a big proof that is clear. Now if I recite to you: “Qul huwallahu ahad” am I reciting the Qur’an?
Also hopefully some of your peers reach out to you because your view that the Arabic Qur’an is created is problematic to them.
That is why I said you will never see me respond to you by saying: “Well, what is the Qur’an if it is not an Arabic Qur’an?”
Because the verse is too clear and very obvious, it even leads you to positions that Hanbali/Athari/Salafi would find problematic.
Which btw you never answered. What is your madhab and what is your school of aqidah?
“Secondly can you please in short comment on 9:6 and 48:15.”
I think this is the parting of ways between us. I cannot take seriously a person who has not even read the article or the information. It is answered in the article itself.
“And where Allah says these are words of prophet it is clear ALLAH IS MOST LIKELY SAYING how can man who lived with you who you said is noble is lying these are words of noble messenger.”
You need to be careful with what you attribute to Allah (swt) the “Most Likely Saying” is a guessing.
“Say, “My Lord has only forbidden immoralities – what is apparent of them and what is concealed – and sin,1 and oppression without right, and that you associate with Allāh that for which He has not sent down authority, and that you say about Allāh that which you do not know.” (Qur’an 7:33)
“Or does he not even speak then what is meant by kalamullah.”
It is another reason why we are done because it is apparent to me that you have not even read the article!
“2:117– He is the One Who has originated the heavens and the earth, and when He wills to (originate) a thing, He only says to it: ‘Be’, and it becomes.
36:82– All it takes, when He wills something ˹to be˺, is simply to say to it: “Be!” And it is!
and if ‘kun’ is created we need kun for kun to exist we will not exist (you have not answered it earlier).”
Which I feel I do not need to go and copy paste something that is dealt with in the article itself.
Your teachers who give you these arguments to use do not even think through the implications.
“All it takes, when He wills something (non-existent) ˹to be˺, (to become existent) is simply to say to it(the non existent): “Be! (exist)” And it is.”
So how is Allah (swt) “saying” to the non-existent “Be” before it even is?
So now you are the one with the infinity problem.
“we don’t question the nature of Allah with our little brains.”
As I mentioned and it is clear in the Qur’an Allah (swt) has told our “little brains” things about himself. It is our “little brains” that use arguments that back fire on us like:
“Only Allah is perfect.” “The Creation is imperfect.” Therefore the implication is to create a trap and get outside (me) to say that that since the Qur’an is created =it is imperfect.
So if we took your position to it’s logical conclusion Allah is the only thing that is perfect. The Qur’an is perfect therefore Allah(swt) is the Qur’an!
You see how this argument your teachers gave you is absolutely destroyed!
“Mashallah i came here to find something that can challenge what I was believing but alhamdulillah i am more confident after listening to your arguments then I was before.”
I have heard these sentiments and statements I would say a dozen times before (usually by people who know they are not doing well in the discussion). It is a false bravado.
Yet, Allah (swt) knows what the truth of what is in the hearts.