“And for their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him nor did they impale (ṣalabūhu) him; (وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَٰكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ)but it was made to appear to them so. Those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no certain knowledge of it, but only follow conjecture. For certainly, they did not kill him.” (Qur’an 4:157)
These are some thoughts after plodding through 3 hours 36 minutes and 33 seconds on the YouTube video on Blogging Theology entitled: Jesus was not crucified: the evidence with Dr. Ali Ataie
You may see this here:
My thoughts are that over all Dr. Ali Ataie is almost there. The stand out from this, the absolutely commendable point is that Dr. Ataie is challenging what is considered to be a historical “fact,” namely that Jesus of Nazareth was Crucified to death by the Roman Imperium.
That in and of itself is refreshing. I have been saying this for years. After looking at the so called “evidence” both biblical and extra biblical I haven’t found it convincing at all.
As I have pointed out in a previous article here: how does anyone read Qur’an 4:157 and walk away with the understanding that it is talking about Romans, Crucifixion or Cross at all?
It is simply put bizarre to me.
Dr. Ataie has a good opening preface that when it comes to issues like resurrection, and other miracles those are simply things that history cannot attest to. There could be a natural and supra natural explanation. Non historical are miracles and miracles are not considered
by modern historians when looking at the past. That being said miracles are not unhistorical it’s just that being in the realm of the supranatural historians do not consider it.
Paul Of Tarsus conversion story for example is non historical.
“I trust Allah and his Messenger.”-Dr. Ataie
@17:55 “If that man said that Jesus wasn’t crucified than I believe him. And I don’t care what Bart Ehrman…..”-Dr. Ataie
Prima Qur’an comments: You see dear reader for some reason Dr.Ataie, Dr. Shabir Ally, Dr. Fatoohi, all think the Qur’an is engaging with something called “crucifixion”
The Qur’an is neither affirming nor denying any crucifixion. The Qur’an is interacting with claims made by Jews about Jesus (as).
Please see:
@19:34 Why in the world did he (Muhammed) deny the crucifixion of Jesus? -Dr. Ataie
Prima Qur’an comments: Again I have read the same Qur’an Dr. Ataie is reading and I simply do not see crucifixion any where in the Qur’an at all.
“The historical case for the crucifixion is not nearly as strong as what we have been lead to believe.” -Dr. Ataie.
@22:36 “It is axiomatic for Westerns that it has happened.”
@24:09 Dr. Ataie goes into the various theories Muslims have in regards to the “crucifixion” of Jesus.
No Dr. Ataie is closet to the truth out of them all ( has he been reading Prima-Qur’an) I guess I should not flatter myself.
@30:17 Dr. Ali Ataie comments that “Crucified victims were left on their crosses long after they expired.”
Dr. Ali Ataie still struggles with Divine Rapture Theory. As he does not find it to be in agreement with the Qur’an and/or historical plausible.
@32:26 Dr. Ali Ataie addresses the issue of Supranatural identity transference.
@32:50 Dr. Ali says that most Muslim exegetes go with this idea that “Jesus was no where near a cross.”
A common trope that we hear from some atheist is that secular historians are objective, unbiased and inductive.
@34:12 objective, unbiased, inductive. -Historians?
Dr. Ataie does an excellent job of going into an analysis of this. How historians have come up with different perspectives and have contradicted each other and how they may not be as objective or unbiased or even as inductive as they may lead themselves to believe.
@40:28 Dr. Ataie states: “But I do believe that myth and legend has probably so permeated the gospel accounts of Jesus passion narratives that it is not at all beyond reason to dismiss them completely as historical fiction!”
Prima-Qur’an comments: Allahu Akbar! there you go Dr. Ataie now that is the ticket!
Than the idea that someone was “crucified” is likely based upon what? Myth and legend.
Dr. Ataie gets into his understanding of: Qur’an 4:157 “It was made to appear to them so.“
@53:38 “They did not have information. It did not come from a reliable source.”
@54:11 “Jews and Christians ended up following hearsay reports about some crucifixion event from non eye-witnesses….”
Prima-Qur’an comments: This is exactly what shubbiha lahum means. It is not shubi ha alayhim!
In fact because we love you the readers insh’Allah I will give you a sneak peak at one of the slides that Shaykh Hilal and I are working on.
If they were witness to something they will not get doubt because it is in front of them.
Even if it was someone else they will not have doubt. They will simply go with it.
@54:25 “When you say it was made to appear to them that it was so who is the implied actor there? Who made it appear to them it was so. Is this referencing God or some other-who is applied in that if you see what I mean?” -Paul Williams!
Prima Qur’an comments: Paul asked a very great question. Very insightful. This is what was answered above. The whole event which by the way is Allah (swt) addressing Jews and claims they made that they killed Jesus and impailed him is based upon Jewish claims that were in orally in circulation in the time of the Prophet (saw).
There is absolutely nothing in Qur’an 4:157 about Romans, or about a cross or about a crucifixion which we will come to Insh’Allah
@1:00:53 “Is there any material evidence of any Jew who was ever crucified?
by the Romans in ancient Palestine? Apparently tens of thousands of Jews were crucified and all archeologist have ever found was a single heel bone of a man with a nail driven through it, they call him Yohanan. I don’t know how they know his name but that’s what they call him.” -Dr. Ataie.
1:12:24 “Paul was the first one in recorded history to claim that Jesus was crucified.”- Dr. Ataie.
Prima-Qur’an comments: This is a genius point not because its clever but because it’s true and it is overlooked by way too many.
Paul lays down his theology in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8.
In fact, Allah-willing I will go ahead and lay out the systematic destruction of this group of text
“If the foundation is destroyed what shall the righteous do?” (Psalms 11:3)
Question: Just how important is the theology in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8?
Answer:
“Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.” (1st Corinthians 15: 12-14, and 17)
Comment: Two major points need to be deduced from the above proof text.
1) If Christ Jesus did not raise from the dead, Christianity is a fruitless endeavor in every respect. Muslims do not say that, the Bible says it.
2) If Christ Jesus is not raised from the dead, Christians are still in their sins; and the whole of Christian theology is fruitless. Muslims do not say that, the Bible does.
Note: (Paul does not try and prove his case on an emptied tomb.)
“For I determine not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” (1st Corinthians 2:2)
Note: Paul is not interested in the historical Christ.
In fact Paul never met the historical Jesus in his lifetime! He only claims to have met Jesus in a vision in Acts 9 , 22 and 26 and each and everyone of those text if juxtaposed contradict and conflict with one another.
“If the foundation is destroyed what shall the righteous do?” (Psalms 11:3)
How sound is that first account of the crucifixion that Paul is relating to us and the whole of Christian theology is hinging on?
How sound is it? Is the foundation solid?
Analyzing the foundation of Christian theology.
(1 Corinthians 15:3-8) <<< The Foundation of Christianity is built upon this text.
“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.” (1st Corinthians 15:3)
Comment:
Paul is referring to the Hebrew Scriptures because there were no New Testament writings at that time. However the fault in this text is that there is no place in the Hebrew scriptures that says a Messiah will die for our sins! Nowhere from Genesis to Malachi! There are allegories about other things.
“And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.” (1st Corinthians 15:4)
Comment:
Again, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures from Genesis to Malachi does it say that a Messiah will rise from the dead on the third day!
“For as yet they knew not the scripture that he must rise again from the dead.” (John 20:9)
Comment:
Even Jesus disciples did not know any scriptures about a Messiah rising from the dead.
There is a major contradiction in this narrative as well.
A Contradiction
“And although THEY found no cause of death in him, yet desired THEY Pilate that he should be slain. And when THEY had fulfilled all that was written of him THEY took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulcher.” (Acts 13:28-29)
Note: (They the Jews who desired his death put him in the tomb, which is contradicted point blank by the Gospel of Mark.)
“And HE brought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulcher which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulcher.” (Mark 15:46)
Note: (Joseph himself put Jesus in the tomb not the Jews who desired his death as in Acts.)
Also, if they fulfilled all that was written of him there would be no “rose again the third day according to the scriptures.”
“And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the Twelve.” (Ist Corinthians 15:5)
Comment:
There the Greek word for seen is Opthe, and is used for spiritual seeing as in a vision. No where in the Bible does it say Peter had an independent sighting of Jesus n this order that Paul is giving?
Question: What does ‘opthe’ mean?
Answer: spiritual seeing a vision
Also “ appearing to the twelve” is wrong because Judas committed suicide. To say that twelve is just a terminology is not true! Jesus called them the 12 apostles and when Judas died the terminology changes to 11 until the election of Mathias in Acts 6:2!
Catholics, however, got it right. The Douay-Rheims which was diligently compared with the original Greek’ text they say 11! Somebody’s Greek text is wrong!
Source: (The Douay-Rheims New Testament (published by Tan Books and Publishers, INC. P.O. box424 Rockford, Illinois 61105)
“After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto the present, but some are fallen asleep.” (1st Corinthians 15:6)
This is contradicted by the following text.
“This man God raised on the third day and granted that he be visible, not to all the people, but to us, the witnesses chosen by God in advance, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.” (Acts 10:40-41)
From Emmaus to Jerusalem Paul wedges in 500 people who he says saw Jesus, and then Jesus ascends up into heaven that day.
“And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.” (Luke 24:51)
This is in contrast to the following
“Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God” (Acts 1:2-3)
The “Third Coming of Jesus”?
So if Jesus really did go up into heaven after he was raised again and then ‘beamed’ back down to hang around for 40 more days only to ‘beam’ back up this would mean that Christians are awaiting the 3rd coming of Jesus, and that just doesn’t sound too illustrious.
“After that he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.” (1st Corinthians 15:7)
Comment:
No where in the Bible does it say James had an independent sighting of Jesus in this order Paul is projecting. The Epistle of James has no account of a risen lord. What an encounter to leave out!
Again when all the apostles are mentioned are there 11 or 12? Which Greek text?
“And, last of all, he was seen of me also, as one born out of due time.” (1st Corinthians 15:8)
Comment:
Finally, Paul insert himself in the picture!
Note: Paul has been using that same word seen in Greek (OPTHE) all the way through to apply to all the apostles. Paul did not have a physical encounter with Jesus.
Paul also believes that the disciples did not have a physical encounter with Jesus as he uses the Greek word Opthe-seen all the way through 1 Corinthians 15:3-8.
Paul’s First account is thus discredited and the ‘foundation has been destroyed’.
We can stop right here and disregard everything else since the source of this crucifixion business is found to be incredible. However, we will pursue this in hopes that some people who did not grasp the argumentation above will find other evidence, Insha’Allah, conclusive.
My apologies dear reader for the detour; we will continue with Dr. Ataie’s presentation.
Dr. Ataie continues also building his case upon what Paul has presented.
Namely that Paul says:
“ I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:11)
The isnaad-the chain of transmission of the Christian account of the crucifixion it begins with Paul.
@1:30:34 Dr. Ataie is quoting a statement of Bart Ehrman which is “Who would make up a crucified Messiah?”
Dr. Ali Ataie makes some good points but I am not sold on the idea of the Jews expecting a Crucified Messiah. I do believe that the gospels are literary fiction to create a counter-Jesus narrative.
Also, important to note that the Qur’an no where states that no one killed Jesus. There is however, a specific text addressed to a group of Jews who claimed to have either killed or impailed Jesus.
Allow me to share with you a very interesting text from the Qur’an.
The Injil or Gospel is mentioned 12 times in 12 verses of the Qur’an. In one of those verses we have the following:
“Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah, so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.” [Qur’an 9:111]
Comment: Out of all the teachings that Allah could inform us about concerning what Jesus taught in the Injil, why did Allah mention the teaching concerning martyrdom? Why would Jesus teach about ‘killing and being killed’ if he was simply a pacifist?
To read more the Ibadi view please read:
@1:34:38 “The Qur’an says there was ikhtilaaf among the Christians?” -Dr. Ataie
Prima-Qur’an comment: Wait what??!
Can Dr. Ataie show us in the Qur’an 4:157 where there is mention of Christians? There is no mention of Christians. Allah (swt) is clearly addressing claims made by some Jews.
Dr. Ataie makes an interesting point that Q: The Sayings Gospel has no passion narrative or resurrection narratives.
Dr. Ataie twice during the presentation used language of obfuscation.
@2:04:09 “impailed on the cross” -Dr. Ataie
Prima-Qur’an comment: crucifixion and Impailment are suspension punishments but they are not the same thing.
A) Impailment is a punishment where a pike/spike or other sharpened object is shoved through the loins/lubmus region of the body. The spine is used to hoist the individual. Depending upon the technique used it is designed to be a quick death struggle after. After the hapless victim cannot use their feet or hands to keep the impale device from reaching vital organs due to exhaustion. The impale device pierces vital organs and the victim dies an excruciating death.
B) Crucifixion is a punishment where an individual is put on a patibulum which is than affixed to a crux (a pole or beam). There is no nothing driven through the spine and the spinal column is relatively left intact. This suspension punishment focuses on putting nails through the hands and feet and meant to be a prolonged death struggle. Death is usually from asphyxiations. No vital organs are pierced. In fact people could survive being crucified for days. Hence, Christians make a huge ordeal about Jesus being scourged before Crucifixion.
@2:39:11 Dr. Ataie is quoting the Sefer Toledoth Yeshu, the Aramaic version and yet quotes the following to us in English:
“The Rabbi says Jesus was executed for sorcery by stoning and then crucified his body was than removed from the cross and dragged through the streets.” -Dr. Ataie
Prima-Qur’an comment: I would be very curious to know the source that Dr. Ataie is quoting from. I am very doubtful that the Aramaic words are cross and crucify just as we know that the Qur’an 4:157 does not say crucify or cross.
The Sefer Toledoth Yeshu (The Book of the History of Jesus)
You could read other versions that would describe how the Romans convicted him; how he died a charlatan’s death (hanging not even on a tree, but on a cabbage stalk); and suffered a criminal’s burial.
@2:49:21 Dr. Ali Ataie gives his version of events that he thinks happens.
Prima-Qur’an comments: Dr. Alie believes that Jesus Barabbas is crucified instead of Jesus by the Romans. A different take to the substitution theory with the key differences being that no miracles happened and no one was made to look like Jesus. Jesus miraculously ascended into heaven where it is presumed here is there even until this day.
@2:58:44 “wa lakun shuba lahum” Was made to appear to them so by the evangelist it was precisely their passion narratives that made people to think that Jesus was crucified.
“For we did not follow cleverly contrived myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ; we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.” (2 Peter 1:16)
@3:23:50 “Perhaps what Paul meant is that the Jews killed him by Crucifixion but historically and legally how would the Jews have executed Jesus? If he was found guilty of blasphemy or sorcery which is actually what the Toledoth Yeshu and Qur’an suggest the charges were.
“This is evidence sorcery.” If that’s the case they would have stoned him and than crucified his body post mortem.” and thus the Qur’an says wama qataluhu wama salabuhu nor
crucify him post mortem.”
Prima-Qur’an comments: Oh Dr. Ataie so close so close. If Dr. Ataie would have simply consulted Jewish legal works he would have found the answer to his question. A very good question btw.
“but historically and legally how would the Jews have executed Jesus“
It is not crucifixion it is impalement.
And for their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him nor did they impale (ṣalabūhu) him; (وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَٰكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ)but it was made to appear to them so. Those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no certain knowledge of it, but only follow conjecture. For certainly, they did not kill him.” (Qur’an 4:157)
- Notice that the context Qur’an 4:157 is speaking about Jews. There is no mention of Romans in the text. You may start at Qur’an 4:154 for context.
- There is a double denial. They did not kill him nor did they (ṣalabūhu) him.
- Why the seemingly redundant text? Is it not sufficient to say “And they did not kill him?” Surely that covers everything?
- Why would Allah (swt) deny that Jews “Crucified” Jesus? Especially if Allah (swt) is aware of Jewish laws?
- Jews do not crucify anyone nor do they put people on crosses.
- Jews do however impale people. So translating (ṣalabūhu) as impale makes complete sense.
- The phrase “but it was made to appear to them” does not indicate that this was something Allah (swt) did.
Now what happens is for some reason Muslims look at Qur’an 4:157 and they see Romans! The whole context of the text is that Allah (swt) is talking about Jews.
If Allah (swt) wanted to say Romans he certainly he could have. Yet, Qur’an 4:157 mentions nothing about the Romans.
“The Romans have been defeated.” (Qur’an 30:20)
So where than do Muslims gets Romans or Crucifixion or Cross in Qur’an 4:157 ?? 🤷
May Allah (swt) guide us to what is beloved to Allah (swt).
Prima Quran 