And for their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him nor did they impale (ṣalabūhu) him; (وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَٰكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ)but it was made to appear to them so. Those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no certain knowledge of it, but only follow conjecture. For certainly, they did not kill him.” (Qur’an 4:157)
﷽
Al hamdulillah. All praise be to Allah (swt) for the right guidance. Whomever Allah guides no no one can misguide them. Whomever Allah allows to stray no one can guide them.
Now, there are Muslim sects as well as Pseudo-Islamic sects that are willing to assert that our creator Allah (swt) is ignorant of the Jewish penal system. May Allah (swt) guide them and us!
Among such groups are basically, the entirety of Ahl Sunnah Wal Jammah, the Ahmadiyyah/Qadiyani movement as well as the Ismaili Nizari.
Their views are unnecessarily convoluted and have caused unnecessary confusion on this matter.
These same groups without even a shred of evidence will look at the following text of the Qur’an and some how imagine and insert Romans and Roman Crucifixion via a Patibulum(Cross)!
The People of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a book from the heaven. But they had asked of Moses [even] greater than that and said, “Show us Allah outright,” so the thunderbolt struck them for their wrongdoing. Then they took the calf [for worship] after clear evidences had come to them, and We pardoned that. And We gave Moses a clear authority. (Qur’an 4:153)
And We cursed them for their breaking of the covenant and their ingratitude towards the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets* without right and their saying, “Our hearts are wrapped”. Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their ingratitude, so they believe not, except for a few. That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge. (Qur’an 4:155-156)
* killing their prophets without right
Sources: (2 Chronicles 24:20-21 & Jeremiah 26:20-23 & 1 Kings 18:4 & 1 Kings 19:9-10)
The above text certainly is not talking about Christians at all!
There are no records of Christians killing their prophets. The only Prophets of the Christians are Yahya (John) & Esau (Jesus).
Also, Christians would never utter against Mary a false charge. In the sense of saying saying demeaning of her (Allah has honoured her in this life and in the life to come!)
Read the Qur’an dear brothers and sisters.
Read it from Qur’an 4:153-157.
Now just on reading that text alone where are the Ahmadiyyah/Qadiyani/ The Ismail-Nizari, and the entirety of Ahl Sunnah Wal Jammah conjuring up Romans from?
The fact, is all of these groups, the Ahmadiyyah/Qadiyani, the Ahl Sunnah Wal Jammah, and the Ismaili Nizari have to depend upon extraneous material and information outside of the Qur’an and the Sunnah to assert their rather baseless claims that some how when we read this text we must imagine it speaking about Romans!
The Arabic word for Romans is not something unfamiliar to the Qur’an.
“The Romans have been defeated.” (Qur’an 30:2) غُلِبَتِ ٱلرُّومُ ghulibati l-rūm
This is akin to Muslims reading Surah Ikhlas, the 112th chapter of the Qur’an and looking at the Arabic text and imaging it speaking about Greeks and the Trojan War.
This would come across to any sane Muslims as something very wacky! It is very left field.
Jews and Judaism unnecessarily get left out in the cold.
Imagine Christians and Jews debating about an issue concerning Muslims and Muslims were not even invited to the table?! It would be quite rude. However, this happens with the Jews and Judaism by us Muslims virtually all…..the…..time!
So I reached out to chabad.org and I thought I would ask practicing Jews what Jews believe. Who would have thought? Such a novel concept right? I will share the short but very polite and insightful e-mail exchange with Rabbi Dov Stein
Here is a comparison/contrast of four views that one may come across today.
- Traditionally Sunni view.
- Modern Sunni view that adopted the Ahmadiyyah/Qadiani view.
- The Ahmadiyyah/Qadiani view.
- The Ismail Nizari/Todd Lawson view.
All four of the above views have the following in common.
- All four posit (without any evidence from the Qur’an or Sunnah) that Qur’an 4:153-157 is some how speaking about Romans.
- All four posit (without any evidence from the Qur’an or Sunnah) that Qur’an 4:153-157 is speaking about a Roman Crucifixion via a Patibulum(Cross).
- All four get the basis for their views from Isrā’īliyyāt material.
- All four use this Isrā’īliyyāt material to impose a view upon the Qur’anic text.
- All four posit a a Roman Crucifixion via a Patibulum (Cross) as historical reality with them differing on rather or not Jesus was placed on a Patibulum (Cross) or not. Rather he was killed on a Patibulum (Cross) or not.
Imami Shi’a tradition.
Want to know who does not speak about Qur’an 4:157?
The following:
Muhammed al Baqir. al-Hasan al-‘Askari. Furat ibn Ibrahim al-Kufi. ali ibn Ibrahim-al-Qummi & Muhammed ibn Mas’ud al-Ayyashi.
“Of some interest is also the fact that there is not even any mention of the verse (Qur’an 4:157) in the voluminous collection of Shi’i traditions, Usul al-Kafi, complied by the Twelver scholar al-Kulayni. Indeed, it is not until the first major tafsir work of Twelver Shi’ism by Abu Ja’far al-Tusi that the problem is broached at all.”
Source: (The Crucifixion and the Qur’an pg. 75 Todd Lawson)
The one thing all four views have in common is that they indirectly by their own ignorance of the Jewish penal system attribute to Allah (swt) ignorance of the Jewish penal system!
Insh’Allah will explain how and why that is the case.
So, I had sent an e-mail to Chabad.org and I received a very cordial and swift reply.
“Capital punishment in Judaism does not involve crucifixion.“
This is very important admission by the respected Rabbi because lays to bed the idea that Jews crucify people. It is simply not part of their penal system.
Our, the Ibadi view is a very simple plain reading of the text. We let the text stand on it’s own without it being interpreted in light of the Isrā’īliyyāt material.
What is that simple conclusion? The very simple basic conclusion for anyone who has even a modicum of Arabic reading comprehension skills is that Qur’an 4:153-157 is speaking about a group of the Jews from the Children of Israel.
The People of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a book from the heaven. But they had asked of Moses [even] greater than that and said, “Show us Allah outright,” so the thunderbolt struck them for their wrongdoing. Then they took the calf [for worship] after clear evidences had come to them, and We pardoned that. And We gave Moses a clear authority. (Qur’an 4:153)
- “But they had asked of Moses [even] greater than that and said, “Show us Allah outright,” This neither refers to Christians or to Romans.
- Then they took the calf [for worship] after clear evidences had come to them. This neither refers to Christians or to Romans.
And We cursed them for their breaking of the covenant and their ingratitude towards the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, “Our hearts are wrapped”. Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their ingratitude, so they believe not, except for a few. That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge. (Qur’an 4:155-156)
- and their killing of the prophets without right As this is a continuation of the theme it neither refers to Christians or to Romans.
- that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge. This neither refers to Christians or to Romans.
And for their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him nor did they impale (ṣalabūhu) him; (وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَٰكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ)but it was made to appear to them so. Those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no certain knowledge of it, but only follow conjecture. For certainly, they did not kill him.” (Qur’an 4:157)
So let us explore the key passage of this text:
“Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him nor did they impale (ṣalabūhu) him.”
- It cannot refer to Christians. Christians would not kill Jesus. Nor would they make a claim that ‘We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary.’
- It cannot refer to Romans simply because the passage does not say so. There is no Arabic word for Romans any where in the text.
- The whole theme of Qur’an 4:153-157 is speaking about a group of Jews from the Children of Israel.
So it should be beyond evident that Qur’an 4:153-157 is not addressing Romans nor Christians.
So now let us look at another key text:
“And they did not kill him nor did they impale (ṣalabūhu) him; (وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَٰكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ)”
So virtually everyone translates the text as
“They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him.”
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/157/
Even the Hafs Qur’an Only religion* disappointed me. Here I was hoping they might show a little initiative but no. They had to go and follow the others.
* Refers to (those who platform a Qur’an only approach)
So let’s go with that for a moment. “nor did they crucify him.”
We have already established that the context of Qur’an 4:153-157 is speaking about a group of Jews from the children of Israel.
So now Qur’an 4:153-157 is reupdating the claims of this group of Jews with:
And for their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.” And they did not kill him nor did they crucify him.”
However, the good Rabbi has informed us:
“Capital punishment in Judaism does not involve crucifixion.“
In fact, in a follow up e-mail with the respected Rabbi, Dov Stein we are informed:
“as they are hung after being executed.”
“where the body was positioned after stoning.”
You have to be a very gullible person to imagine Jews boasting: “Yeah we killed Christ Jesus the Son of Mary by a method of execution not sanctioned by the Torah ha ha ha!”
Now if you notice in the first e-mail exchange the respected Rabbi gave me two links.
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/961590/jewish/Positive-Commandment-230.htm
Look at the footnotes from the above link.
“I.e. after they have been executed, they are hung publicly. The person is hung up just before sunset and taken down immediately thereafter. See Hilchos Sanhedrin 15:6-7.”
The Rabbi also gave me this link: https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1172738/jewish/Sanhedrin-vehaOnashin-haMesurin-lahem-Chapter-15.htm
It is a positive commandment to hang a blasphemer and an idolater after they have been executed, as implied by Deuteronomy 21:23: “A person who is hung is cursing God.” This refers to the blasphemer. With regard to an idolater, Numbers 15:30 states: “He blasphemes God.”
A man is hung, but a woman is not hung, as implied by Deuteronomy 21:22: “When a man has sinned and is condemned to die, after he is executed, you shall hang him….”ו
מִצְוַת עֲשֵׂה לִתְלוֹת אֶת הַמְגַדֵּף וְעוֹבֵד עַכּוּ”ם שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (דברים כא כג) “כִּי קִלְלַת אֱלֹהִים תָּלוּי” הֲרֵי מְגַדֵּף אָמוּר וּבְעוֹבֵד עַכּוּ”ם נֶאֱמַר (במדבר טו ל) “אֶת ה’ הוּא מְגַדֵּף”. וְהָאִישׁ נִתְלֶה וְאֵין הָאִשָּׁה נִתְלֵית שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (דברים כא כב) “כִּי יִהְיֶה בְאִישׁ חֵטְא מִשְׁפַּט מָוֶת וְהוּמָת וְתָלִיתָ אֹתוֹ”:
How is the mitzvah of hanging carried out? After the convicted is stoned, a beam is implanted in the ground with a rafter protruding from it. The two hands of the corpse are intercrossed and he is hung close to sunset.
He is released immediately. If not, a negative commandment is transgressed, as Ibid.:23 states: “Do not let his corpse tarry overnight on the beam.”
כֵּיצַד מִצְוַת הַנִּתְלִין. אַחַר שֶׁסּוֹקְלִין אוֹתָן מְשַׁקְּעִין אֶת הַקּוֹרָה בָּאָרֶץ וְעֵץ יוֹצֵא מִמֶּנָּה וּמַקִּיפִין שְׁתֵּי יָדָיו זוֹ לָזוֹ וְתוֹלֵהוּ סָמוּךְ לִשְׁקִיעַת הַחַמָּה וּמַתִּירִין אוֹתוֹ מִיָּד. וְאִם לָן עוֹבְרִין עָלָיו בְּלֹא תַּעֲשֶׂה שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (דברים כא כג) “לֹא תָלִין נִבְלָתוֹ עַל הָעֵץ”:
Now the commentary that you have seen above is by the legendary Rabbi, Moshe ben Maimon (Maimonides). That commentary was on the following text of the Torah:
“If any party is guilty of a capital offense and is put to death, and you impale the body on a stake, you must not let the corpse remain on the stake overnight, but must bury it the same day. For an impaled body is an affront to God: you shall not defile the land that your God יהוה is giving you to possess.”
Source: (https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.21.23)
“If a man commits a sin for which he is sentenced to death, and he is put to death, you shall [then] hang him on a pole. But you shall not leave his body on the pole overnight. Rather, you shall bury him on that [same] day, for a hanging [human corpse] is a blasphemy of God, and you shall not defile your land, which the Lord, your God, is giving you as an inheritance.”
Source: (https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9985)
Now is there anything with in the sacred sources of the Jews that the Qur’an may be refuting or interacting with?
“At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.” (John 8:59)
“Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
(John 10:31-32)
“But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!” (Qur’an 61:6)
Recall that the Qur’an mentions a double denial or a double negation.
Simply stating: They didn’t kill him would be sufficient. It covers every mode or method of death known to mankind.
Yet the Qur’an deliberately gives us a double denial/double negation.
Recall that the Jews do not crucify people but they do hang/impale them after stoning them to death. In other words a post mortem suspension humiliation.
Recall the words of the Torah:
“For an impaled body is an affront to God.”
“And they did not kill him nor did they impale (ṣalabūhu) him; (وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ )”
The double negation certainly rules out the Ismaili Nizari /Todd Lawson position.
That is because they understand the part of the text: “they did not kill him” (as a reference to Jesus soul). However, they do assert (without a shred of evidence) the things the other 3 groups hold to as asserted in my points: 1-5 above.
This is indeed a glaring problem for the Ismaili Nizari/Todd Lawson position. The Ismaili Nizari/Todd Lawson assert that a crucifixion happened.
Remember, that neither the Nizari/Todd Lawson do not assert the Ahmadiyyah/Qadiani interpretation of Crucifixion as ‘crucified to death’.
You see dear respected readers. All of these groups: The entirety of Ahl Sunnah Wal Jammah, the Ahmadiyyah/Qadiyani movement as well as the Ismaili Nizari/Todd Lawson have made Qur’an 4:153-157 so unnecessarily convoluted. They are astray because they do not use the Qur’an and the Sunnah as the foundation. Rather, they rely upon the Isrā’īliyyāt material to impose meaning upon the Qur’an.
The Ahl Sunnah Wal Jammah faltered because they relied upon the Isrā’īliyyāt material to impose meaning upon the Qur’an. They have never been able to substantiate their view from the Qur’an or the Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (saw).
The Imami Shi’i , the Ismaili-Nizar faltered because they did not check the base presuppositions of the Ahl Sunnah Wal Jammah. They relied upon those presuppositions but came to different exegetical conclusions. However, they assumed the base points that the Sunni assumed.
The Ahmadiyyah (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) faltered because he too did not check the base presuppositions of Ahl Sunnah Wal Jammah. He relied upon those presuppositions but came to different exegetical conclusions.
The latter Sunnis who adopted the Ahmadiyyah position as it was useful for debates: (Ahmed Deedat, Shabir Ally, Yusuf Ismail, Yusuf Buccas). However, there has to be more credit given to them because at the very least they found issue with the prevailing dominant Sunni position on the issue. Where they faltered was because they did questioned some of the assumptions of the Isrā’īliyyāt material that informed that tradition, but did not think to question it in total.
Certainly with all these groups as with any who do good their reward is with Allah (swt). There is no doubt about that. Those views may have been helpful in the past. We have a better way.
There is a very simple solution to all of this. Tafsir al-Quran bi-l-Quran. (Interpreting the Qur’an by the Qur’an)
When we do this. We can see that: Qur’an 4:153-157 is speaking to a group of Jews from the Children of Israel. No Romans or No Christians any where in the text.
We can also see that if we do a textual analysis of Ṣād-lām-bā’: ṣalb and ṣallab refer to a bone from the upper body to the waist [i.e., the backbone]
Which we have done here:
We will clearly see the above text: Qur’an 4:153-157 (especially given that it relates to Jewish claims) does not refer to a Roman Crucifixion via a Patibulum(Cross)!
Think about it!
The Qur’an when dealing with the Christians speaks about the alleged deity of Jesus and his allegedly being the Son of Allah.
So what is the implication of the double negation (not killing or impailing) being directed towards a group of Jews from the Children of Israel?
- You did not kill him.
- You did not impale him. This is especially important because: For an impaled body is an affront to God
Look at this different translations of 1 Corinthians 1:23
This whole text Qur’an 4:153-157 has noting at all to do with Romans.
We don’t have to get all fancy schmancy and start talking about Jesus dying physically on a Roman Patibulum (Cross) but not his soul!
We don’t have to get fancy schmancy and start talking about Allah creating Christianity because he made someone else look like Jesus and that someone else was killed on a Roman Patibulum (Cross).
We don’t have to get all fancy schmancy and start talking about Jesus was indeed put on a Roman Patibulum (Cross) but was taken down alive, presumably after he swooned, fainted or passed out.
“He is is going forth to be stoned.” وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ they did not kill him
He was hanged (impaled) on the even of the Passover. وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ they did not impale him.
Very simple very easy to understand. Tafsir al-Quran bi-l-Quran. No need to use the Isrā’īliyyāt to impose meaning upon the Qur’an.
Well, for those of you who want to believe in the crucifixion of Jesus or not believe he was crucified Knock yourself out! The idea of Roman Crucifixion via a Patibulum(Cross) is alien to the Qur’an. It neither affirms it nor negates it.
Final Thoughts.
What are the implications?
- This deals a final nail in the coffin of the Ahmadiyyah/Qadiani movement. The information contained in this article is a death blow to their movement. Mirza Ghulam is evidently a false Prophet. He was not aware that Qur’an 4:153-157 is not speaking about the Romans.
- We don’t have to deal with missionary claims that the Qur’an denies a supposed ‘historical fact’. It is simply irrelevant to the Qur’an.
- That a purist approach to interpreting the Qur’an by the Qur’an makes the most sense.
- We don’t have to follow the Salafi Manhaj, the Dawatus Salafiyyah, the Ahmadiyyah, the Nizari Ismail and whoever else believe in Isrā’īliyyāt material with no sanad, no connected chains going back to the claimed source material.
- We don’t have to imagine the creator, Allah (swt) being unaware of the Jewish penal code. Astaghfirullah.
- The Jews can no longer be called Christ Killers, because the Qur’an exonerates them of the charge.
May Allah Guide the Ummah.
May Allah Forgive the Ummah.
Prima Quran 
A thought provoking, well argued perspective. Regarding a different interpretation of this verse from this UK Salafi website, one favouring ‘Crucifixion’ rather than ‘Impaleing’, how would you judge this video arguing in favour of the traditional sunni view ?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aeOX8tLQKo
Hello Toby ,or Hamilton not sure which name you prefer. Glad to see you haven’t abandoned the blog completely.
As mentioned I don’t see any need to promote the person you mentioned. Will not get traction from me. Have not been impressed by that individual at all.
Alas, I think it is also important to read and listen very attentively and very carefully to what someone claims.
The video link you gave for example does not say anything at all about the traditional sunni view. The video does not mention anything about swapping out Jesus (as) for someone else.
The video could have been titled: “Bible Prophecy Proves Jesus was NOT stoned to death.”
The video could have been titled: “Bible Prophecy Proves Jesus was not Impailed.”
In fact the creator of that video proves this point @3:14 mark. Notice is shows images of what appears to be
a meat cleaver, an axe, a cobra, a lion, a blunt spear, a devils hand etc.
Their point was simply ‘no harm done at all.’
The only thing that becomes like listening to a broken record over and over again is the repeated assertion that the Qur’an denies crucifixion and by this we all know that they are speaking about Romans and a Patibulum.
I would ask the entire team of iera, I would ask Khalil Andani, Todd Lawson, Shabir Ally, Dr. Ali Atai, Mohamed Hijab, the entire scholarship of Sunnis, Shi’i alike a simple basic question:
When we read the Qur’an 4:153-4:159 where do we get romans from reading this text? Why do we insert Romans when the Qur’an itself mentions nothing about them in that text. The Qur’an speaks of the Jews and claims Jews made.
Can you imagine Joseph Smith writing in the book of Mormon something akin to the idea that Muaviya was a Prophet after the Blessed Prophet (saw) and then the book of Mormon says,
“They the (Muslims) said in boast we killed, Muaviya the Prophet of God, but they killed him not nor did they burn him.”
That text would be dismissed twice in 1 second flat. It would show Joseph Smith as someone grossly ignorant of Islamic Hadd punishments. The Islamic Hadd punishments do not involve burning anyone at all. So that text the book of Mormon would certainly not be of divine origin to make such a blunder.
Furthermore, imagine that the word used for ‘burn’ in the English language could be translated a variety of ways and we find that this English word that has been translated as ‘burn’ , that this word appears 8 times in the Book of Mormon. It appears 6 times in a verb form and twice as a noun. That when all those words are also examined they do not produce the understanding of ‘to burn’.
Then on top of this mess, imagine Joseph Smith telling people that the Book of Mormon denies that Muaviya was drowned by the Persians! When his own text mentions nothing about Persians and nothing about anyone being drowned.
This is what we are dealing with.
All the best on your research paper Mr. Toby/ Mr. Hamilton.
Dear Sir-Thank you for your reply, and I apologise for bothering you once more. Thank you for your kind wishes with regard to my thesis papar, in which thankfully some progress is being made. Alas I have been unwell over the past few months, and so have not been able to comment as often as I should like. With regard to the video from ‘Many Prophets One Message’, may ask for clarification on two points?:
1.The narrator states that it is ‘crystal clear’ that the Quran states that Jesus was saved from death and was raised alive, body and soul into heaven. From our previous discussions I know that you do not believe this to be the case. As such, do you believe that thesis this video seeks to present is effectlvly groundless from an Ibadi point of view ?
2.The video states that Psalm 91 clearly denies the death of Jesus, therefore meaning that Sunni and Biblical accounts in fact agree: Jesus was saved and did not suffer death. From your doctrinal perspective, may I ask how would you answear such an assertion ?
Any clarification would be immensly welcome, and have a wonderful evening.
You are not bothering me. If I have the time and I can answer insh’Allah I will do so.
“The narrator states that it is ‘crystal clear’ that the Quran states that Jesus was saved from death and was raised alive, body and soul into heaven.”
The Qur’an specifically states that the Jews did not kill Jesus nor did they Impail him.
This would be as factual as saying that you and I were in World War 2 and the Italians didn’t kill me. This does not mean
that the Germans did not kill me.
Not to mention that a negation of the idea that the Italians killed me in World War 2 does not preclude me dying
any other way (other than being inflicted by harm by enemies)
“raised alive body and soul” We have went over this numerous times.
“The video states that Psalm 91 clearly denies the death of Jesus, therefore meaning that Sunni and Biblical accounts in fact agree: Jesus was saved and did not suffer death. From your doctrinal perspective, may I ask how would you answer such an assertion.”
It is a nice way to dovetail the Sunni view that Jesus did not die (at all).
We, take our evidence from the Qur’an We use this as the BASIS that informs us of our beliefs.
We do not take extraneous sources (outside of these) and then use those extraneous sources as the BASIS to inform the Qur’an.
However, if Jesus did not pass away like those before him then perhaps the people of that time have credible evidence to suggest divine-like qualities.
“And Muhammed is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels! he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful”. (Qur’an 3:144)
This same text that is used of Jesus above is also used of the Blessed Messenger (swt).
In fact, if Jesus had not already passed away this text would make little to no sense. It could be objected that, ‘Jesus, Khidr, and Idris are still alive; and we expect the same for Muhammed‘.
Why would the All-Wise Creator open himself up to such an obvious counter-argument?
If an objection is raised that this means ‘some prophets and not all prophets‘ the text would lose the thrust of its argument. “is no more than a messenger“.
How does it argue that he is no more than a messenger? It does this by asserting the fact that those before him have died.
“The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him.” (Qur’an 5:75)
In fact, if those before him have not died then it can be argued that they [Khidr, Idris, and Jesus] are something other than just prophets.
Also keep in mind that the Sunni position (with few dissenting voices as you can see from the Mufti of Turkey, among others,) that Jesus (as) will come back.
This view of the Sunni have introduced major types of bid’ah
1) You can’t say that Muhammed (saw) is the last Prophet or Messenger if Jesus (as) is coming after him. Thus, The Sunni strip Jesus (as) from the office
of Prophethood. This has not been done to any other Prophet or Messenger of Allah. Who gave them this authority? This is a major and evil bid’ah.
2) When has ANY other Prophet other than Jesus (as) supposedly not completed his message?
“Haven’t I conveyed Allah’s message to you? They said, “Yes.” He said, “O Allah! Be witness. So it is incumbent upon those who are present to convey it (this information) to those who are absent because the informed one might comprehend it (what I have said) better than the present audience, who will convey it to him. Beware! Do not renegade (as) disbelievers after me by striking the necks (cutting the throats) of one another.”
Source: (https://sunnah.com/bukhari:1741)
The idea of a Prophet leaving the scene with unfinished work is a major bid’ah.
Alas, if Jesus (as) is not coming back as a Prophet or Messenger and is doing a tag team with this Mahdi’ individual why not confer
the duties unto the Mahdi?
All of this is clear bid’ah. It is clear innovation.
The Qur’an does not have the following text any where!
1) No one ever killed Jesus ever. It is NOT in the Qur’an.
2) Jesus never died (as in of natural causes) This text is also NOT in the Qur’an.
But, and please correct me is i am wrong, you do hold that Jesus died as a holy martyr ?
“Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah ? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.” (Qur’an 9:111)
I find it extremely intriguing that the Qur’an mentions the word Injil exactly 12 times.
In one of those times the Creator and the Knower of All things deemed it fit for us to know that the injeel contained the following teaching:
“They fight in the cause of Allah , so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an.”
I personally believe that Jesus died as a holy martyr, performing the religious duty of Jihad against the oppressive Roman Imperium.
Rather they rained arrows down upon him, slashed him with swords or impailed him.
However, NONE of that is definitely proven from either the Qur’an or the Sunnah.
Allah (swt) knows best.
Yet, regardless of the method, Jesus is conclusivly dead ?
Conclusively dead.
The Qur’an itself offers no cause for confusion. Tawaffā appears in twenty-five passages in the Qur’an, and twice in relation to Christ Jesus (Q 5:117 and Q 3.55).
For twenty-three of those passages the Muslim commentators generally follow the standard definition of this term, that is that Allah (swt) separates the soul from the body or makes someone die.
Think about this: For those passages that are not tied into ahadith about Jesus(as) coming back they are translated and understood as per usual.
Also know that HQ 5:117 or HQ 3:55 can’t be understood as falling asleep. It is actually negated by Qur’an 6:60. and Qur’an 39:42
Why? Allah (swt) either:
Takes souls at the time of their death. If the souls are taken the person(body) dies.
Other souls are taken during sleep-during an unspecified period of time-if they are not returned than they die in their sleep leaving behind a body.
Other souls are taken during sleep-during an unspecified period of time –If they are returned to their body the person lives the course of their natural life until they die in the future.
In all three examples the body is left behind. There are no examples where tawaffā means to taking the soul and the physical body.
Gabriel replied, ‘Muhammed.’ It was asked, ‘Has he been called?’ Gabriel answered in the affirmative. Then it was said, ‘He is welcomed. What an excellent visit his is!’ The gate was opened. When I went over the second heaven, there I saw Yahya (i.e. John) and `Isa (i.e. Jesus) who were cousins of each other. Gabriel said (to me), ‘These are John and Jesus; pay them your greetings.’ So I greeted them and both of them returned my greetings to me and said, ‘You are welcomed, O pious brother and pious Prophet.’ ”
Source: https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3887
What should we expect concerning the state of those Prophets (May Allah’s peace and blessings be upon them all)?
“The Messiah, son of Mary, is no more than a messenger, certainly the messengers before him have passed away. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!” (Qur’an 5:75)
“And when God will say: O Jesus son of Mary! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides God, he will say: Glory be to You, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, You would indeed have known it; You know what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in your mind, surely you are the great Knower of the unseen things. I did not say anything to them except what you commanded me with: That worship God, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness over them as long as I was among them, but when you caused me to die (Arabic: Tawafaytani), you were the watcher over them, and you are witness of all things.” (Qur’an 5:116-117)
There are several things to take from the above passage:
1) This dialogue is taking place on the Day of Judgment where Prophet Jesus (as) suggests that he has no knowledge of what has happened since his demise on Earth and after his ministry ended. “I was a witness over them as long as I was among them.”
2) From the discussion it is clear that Prophet Jesus only came to Earth once acting as a witness over his people. If indeed there was a ‘second coming‘ before the Day of Judgment, he would have knowledge of what had happened since his first departure. This conversation with Allah (swt) would make little to no sense. After all, he abolished the Jizya and forced the Christians to convert to Islam. This conversation with Allah (swt) would make little to no sense!
3) Imagine if the ahadiths that are put in the mouth of the Blessed Prophet (saw) are true for a moment.
So now Jesus (as) comes back and everyone becomes a Muslim. The Dajjal is defeated. Jesus (as) gets married. Than Allah (swt) causes Jesus (as) to die.
Than we have Jesus (as) saying after he dies to Allah (swt) “I was witness over them as long as I was among them, but when you caused me to die, you were the watcher over them, and you are witness of all things.” Rather bizarre it seems.
Especially if we take the majority interpretation of “And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death.” (Qur’an 4:159)
A rather bizarre situation the majority position leaves us in.
It is clear to all whom Allah (swt) has lifted the veils of that Qur’an 5:116-117 is talking about Jesus (as) earthly life and ministry.
The very presence of Jesus creates a bizarre redundant time paradox if we are to believe the Sunni position.
Think about it.
Look at the verse again: Imagine that Allah [swt] is saying this to Jesus who came down from the skies, fought the Dajjal, got married and died.
“Allah said, O Jesus, I shall cause you to die and will raise you up to Me and shall purify you of the ungrateful disbelieving people, and shall place those who follow you above those who deny the truth, until the Day of Judgement; then to Me shall all return and I will judge between you regarding your disputes.” (Qur’an 3:55)
If Jesus is alive in the heavens why is he not aware of this already?
Why is he not aware that Allah [swt] has already cleared him of falsehood by the Qur’an?
Even if he wasn’t aware after 2000 plus years than surely he would have access to the Qur’an when he is on Earth? He can read the text that already cleared him? Can you imagine Jesus (as) attending the tarweeh prayers in Ramadan and hearing Qur’an 5:116-117 being recited?
Whereas if we understand the text (Qur’an 3:55) as a revelation from Allah [swt] to his Prophet Jesus (as) it at the time of his death it comes across as very comforting and reassuring. That Allah [swt] is the cause of your death and you will return to your lord as the statement: “Indeed, to Allah we belong and to Allah we shall return.” That he [Jesus] will be cleared of false accusations. That his followers will be superior over the detractors on the day of judgment.
The only interesting aspect is that because the word Tawaffā CAN be translated as sleep, something tranquil is that from an outsider perspective the martyr looks as if he/she dies in a savage manner that causes a great deal of suffering and pain.
However, if Allah (swt) sends his Angel to comfort someone, he can make a savage death seem as comforting and soothing as sleep. A sweet surrender.
Thank you for your explaination, which does seem more reasonable than the mainstream Shia/Sunni view. Yet , if I may, two questions remain. I think I may have asked this before, so I beg your pardon if I am repeating myself.
Thank you for your questions Mr. Hamilton. No need to beg my pardon. Maybe before I myself did not seem to exercise patience because often on these social media platforms we do encounter people who try and troll and have all types of ulterior motives.
For example, You could be here because you have not heard these claims before and you are part of a Christian think-take that
examines the claims of Muslims and tries to teach Christians how to respond to our claims. Or to train them for mission work. Allah knows best.
As best as I can tell insh’Allah I can see that you are a sincere individual.
So you are the one who should pardon me and I seek forgiveness from Allah (swt) in any way I am not patient.
If we cannot have patience with people then we (I) should stop what I am doing. There are four things that Muslims involved in daw’ah needs if they are to be effective.
1) A real genuine love for humanity, after all, humanity is bani Adam (the tribe of Adam)
2) Patience. Even patience with people who are ill mannered.
3) Humility, if we show arrogance, or hubris Allah (swt) will absolutely destroy us, our platform, or whatever even if we are upon the truth! Allah loves not the arrogant and boastful.
4) Sincerity. We must be willing to also examine points and weigh their merits if it is for or against us. Because we are after truth.
So may Allah (swt) strengthen my resolve on all these points. Amin
So you raised two very good questions. These are two new questions!
Might I propose a third question? One that would surely be on the Christian mind or maybe even my Muslim interlocutors from the people of opposition?
What happened to the body of Jesus (as)?
“If Jesus did die fighting as a martyr in a holy war against Roman authority, how is he to be differentiated from the numerous pious Jewish rebels who also either died or were imprisoned for defending their faith and Temple against Roman aggression ? Examples include Judas of Galilee, Menahem ben Judah, Eleazar ben Ya’ir, John of Gischala and Phannias ben Samuel. Furthermore Rabbi Akiva is described as having been horribly executed with iron rakes.”
As a Muslim our presupposition is to believe in the Qur’an. Thus, the Qur’an informs us that Jesus (as) had those who believed in him and those who did not believe in him.
So I’m going to understand your questions specifically in the context of how would we engage the Jews?
“After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.” (Daniel 9:26)
Isn’t the Christian belief also that the Messiah will die?
Also, Orthodox Judaism seems split on the matter. With some of them claiming that of course the Messiah will die, as he is a man.
Some have claimed that death will simply not exist anymore.
Also as you know the Jews believe that the Messiah will come through the line of David; but they have absolutely no clue who among them is this descendant. They have not kept those type of genealogical records. So they have to contend with that. As you know Judaism had those who claimed to be the Messiah a number of times. There will always be believers/disbelievers, one of the last known ones to claim to be the Messiah Sabbatai Zevi.
Allah knows best but I am quite sure at any given moment in some Orthodox Synagogues in New York or elsewhere the students murmur about how Rabbi so and so is the Messiah.
In fact, and this is a side point altogether, and you should know that I am 100% in support of Palestine and the Palestinian people and without doubt anti-Zionist. That being said, I would be in favour of giving the Jews the area they want to build their so called ‘Third temple’ and the reason I would do that is for the sake of strategy and claim.
It would effectively END Orthodox Judaism, which is the bulk of the remaining Jews. Why? Because NO messiah will come. Secondly it would put to destroy huge swathes of Evangelical Christianity and their estachological claims.
I mean let us imagine for a moment that we had an Ibadi Caliphate, which now comprises Egypt, Oman, Yemen, parts of Arabia, and Palestine. This Ibadi Caliphate made a controversial decision.
Let us put the claims of these other groups to the test. They claim they need such and such for their messiah to come. So this Ibadi Caliphate invites these Rabbis “how long should we except for the arrival of this messiah if what you say is true?”
And it comes with a stipulation. When that time runs out and your Messiah does not show up, you either convert to Islam in mass, leave the lands and all claims to them forever, or die.
“If Jesus, whom you and I believe was the Christ, died and no great miracle take place to vindicate him, how can he be meaningfully differentiated from the numerous failed messianic claimants both before and after him ? Examples of such failed claimants, many of whom were military in their behavior, include Theudas, Simon bar Kokhba, Athronges, Simon of Peraea and the mysterious messianic figure known only as ‘The Egyptian’?”
Miracles in and of themselves did not vindicate Jesus (as).
“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” (Matthew 24:24)
“But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!” (Qur’an 61:6)
In fact Jesus (as) was not only used miracles but he was supplied with cohesive, sound and logical arguments.
Arguments often vindicated Jesus (as) -according to the New Testament and not miracles.
“And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.” (Matthew 12:27)
Which interestingly enough today, Christians use arguments against Muslims, the so called: “Islamic dilemma” which undermines statements of Jesus (as).
“And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?”
Which lays waste to the ridiculous claim that the Qur’an (which they believe is authored by Satan) is pointing to and validating the New Testament (which Christians believe is from God).
So we can sit down and invite the Jews to inform us about what they have; and we Muslims will inform them about what we have, (The Qur’an), which claims Jesus (as) is the Messiah, and that is sufficient for us.
Just as it is claimed that Jesus (as) used arguments we too can supply arguments.
“Invite ˹all˺ to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and kind advice, and only debate with them in the best manner. Surely your Lord ˹alone˺ knows best who has strayed from His Way and who is ˹rightly˺ guided.” (Qur’an 16:125)
Lastly, though you did not bring it up I anticipated it as a possible question.
What happened to Jesus (as) body this could be asked by Christians or fellow Muslims from the (Ahl Al Khilaf) the people of opposition.
To this I would respond it is not a point of doctrine for us and it is not something that is important to us to know the burial locations and each and everyone of Allah’s Prophets. For that matter we do not know where Genghis Khan is buried. So I don’t assume to know where the body of Jesus (as) is.
For example, we could dive into the controversy surrounding the Assumption of Mary (as). A belief held by Roman Catholics, Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox and surprisingly Anglicans. A belief that has no real basis in the New Testament but is rather supplied by Church tradition.
I believe it would possibly bother people to not know the fate of the ‘Mother of Jesus’ after all. However, for most of the Protestant tradition the question is uneventful and irrelevant to them. “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.” (John 3:13)
Even then, Protestants obviously have to “work” this text because we know about Elijah and Enoch etc.
This maybe disappointing, especially, for Christians but it goes both ways.
Imagine a movie 2 hours in length. What I offer the last 10 minutes of the film is missing, what the Christians offer the first 1 hour and 15 minutes of the film is missing.
Here we supposedly have God in human form on the planet for 33 years and only 3 years of his life is recorded.
Really of that 3 years all that is attributed to can be put into a 4 hour kindle audio book!
The whole of Jesus for Christians is hype fixated on the Romans putting him on the patibulum.
If we are to grant a 27 NT Canon as opposed to the 22 or 35 book New Testaments that were in dispute among Christians in the time of the Blessed Prophet (saw). 19/27 have absolutely no words of Jesus in them at all! 70.67% of the New Testament has nothing attributed to Jesus!!
1 and 2 Corinthians two other books have two passages ascribed to Jesus:
1 Cor 11:24 & 2 Cor 12:9 The rest of these two letters nothing.
This means only the Four traditional Gospels, the Apocalypse of John, and book of Acts are the the only NT books that have words attributed to Jesus with in them! (other than the 2 Corinthians citations) Most Christians do not stop to think about this!
The following books of a 27 book New Testament canon have absolutely no words of Jesus in them at all. In this sense they are Jesus-less New Testament books.
Romans (no words of Jesus at all)
Galatians (no words of Jesus at all)
Colossians (no words of Jesus at all)
1 Timothy (no words of Jesus at all)
2 Timothy (no words of Jesus at all)
Ephesians (no words of Jesus at all)
Philippians (no words of Jesus at all)
1 Thessalonians (no words of Jesus at all)
2 Thessalonians (no words of Jesus at all)
Hebrews (no words of Jesus at all)
James (no words of Jesus at all)
Titus (no words of Jesus at all)
Philemon (no words of Jesus at all)
1 John (no words of Jesus at all)
2 John (no words of Jesus at all)
3 John (no words of Jesus at all)
Jude (no words of Jesus at all)
1 Peter (no words of Jesus at all)
2 Peter (no words of Jesus at all)
Some may call this whataboutism, I find people like that trying to escape the demand for consistency.
May Allah (swt) guide to what is beloved to him.
Dear Sir-Thank you again for your kind and thorough reply. I apologise of I seemed rude or ill mannered over the course of our discussions, please be assured this was never ever my intent. You have been immensly kind and courteous, and allow me to assure you that my sole purpose is to further my understanding.
My purpose in referencing other Jewish military/rabbinic martyrs and Messianic claimants is not strictly in refernces to current Jewish messianism, but rather to the politically turbulent and violent world in which Jesus and his followers existed.
In this context, as you know, there existed numerous Jewish miracle workers such as Honi the Circle Drawer, Abba Hilkiah and Hanina ben Dosa. Furthermore it was common for the followers and students of martyr rabbis to preserve their message, propagate their distinctive teachings and revere their message, as was the case with he followers of Akiva and Haninah ben Teradion. Similar veneration was accorded to military figures such as Judas Maccabeus prior to Jesus and later Simon bar Kokhba (to an extent).
I suppose my question is, in this context, is Jesus was a miracle working martyr who died opposing Rome, why did the ‘Jesus Movement’ not either fail completely or fade into obscurity, as so many other Jewish devotional sects did ?
“why did the ‘Jesus Movement’ not either fail completely or fade into obscurity, as so many other Jewish devotional sects did ?”
It did. Hence the coming of the Blessed Prophet Muhammed (saw) and Islam.