“The Jews say, “Uzair is the son of Allah,” while the Christians say, ‘The Messiah is the son of Allah.” Such are their baseless assertions, only parroting the words of earlier disbelievers. May Allah condemn them! How can they be deluded ‘from the truth’?’ (Qur’an 9:30)
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Imagine for a moment that you are a follower of the Hafs Qur’an only religion. Your understanding of the Qur’an as a follower of this religion is that:
It is the only source of guidance, not the primary source.
That it is highly detailed, and your understanding is that it, and it alone contains absolutely everything you need.
Have you ever seen a meaningful discussion between a follower of the hafs Qur’an only religion and a follower of Judaism on the question of Uzair being the son of Allah, where the Quranist uses the Qur’an alone?
Let’s look at what the Qur’an does tell us.
It mentions an individual named Uzair (mentioned once in the entire Qur’an) whom the Jews would call the son of Allah.
Now let us look at the situation with the Christians. This is an easier claim to engage with. The Christians will openly admit they believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that he is the son of God. Even if they are Unitarians or Jehovah’s Witnesses. We have yet to come across any Christian who does not make this baseline claim about Christ Jesus. Secondly, we can look to their sacred text and see these claims being made about Jesus there.
So how does a follower of the Hafs Qur’an only religion use only the above text to engage with a follower of Judaism on the issue of the claim of Jews that Uzair is the son of God?
That is, how do those who claim to follow the Hafs Qur’an only engage with Jews in a meaningful way?
“The Jews say, “Uzair is the son of Allah,” while the Christians say, ‘The Messiah is the son of Allah.” Such are their baseless assertions, only parroting the words of earlier disbelievers. May Allah condemn them! How can they be deluded ‘from the truth’?’ (Qur’an 9:30)
The above verse is sufficient for belief. However, it is not sufficient for proofs and evidences.
“Produce your proof if what you say is true.” (Qur’an 2:111)
Imagine a world where Allah (swt) tells the Blessed Prophet (saw) to ask the Jews and Christians to produce the proofs of what they say, but we are under no obligation to do so?
“And if You (Muhammed) are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto you, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before you. Verily the Truth from your Lord has come to you. So be not of those who doubt.” (Qur’an 10:94)
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Before we get started, we would like to address you: the curious, the truth seeker, the student of comparative religion. The state of apologetics and polemics between Muslims and Christians today has reached a point that neither side wants to give an inch. It is up to you, the truth-seeker, to open your heart to the truth. We are not able to win any over We are simply able to try and convey the message to the best of my abilities.
Addressing the thought process of why Christians try to take this approach with Muslims.
In other words, even if Christians did manage to convince Muslims to accept one of their competing canons of the Bible, that does not automatically mean that the Bible itself is a revelation from Allah. Thus, the Muslim considers Christianity. Equally possible is that the Muslim would question why the Qur’an would endorse any competing Christian canon of the Bible that is riddled with errors. The Qur’an asking us to follow error for guidance would mean that the Qur’an itself is in error. Thus, rather than becoming a Christian, the Muslim might very well become an Agnostic.
“That is Allah—your True Lord. So what is beyond the truth except falsehood? How can you then be turned away?” (Qur’an 10:32)
So let us come to the matter.
Does the Qur’an teach that ‘The Bible’ was corrupted?
One of the amazing things that Muslims believe today, especially Muslim apologists, is that the Qur’an teaches that the Bible is corrupted. There could be nothing further from the truth.
Nowhere in the entire Qur’an will you find any of the following statements:
“The Bible has been corrupted.”
“The Vedas have been corrupted.”
“The Gospel was corrupted.”
“The Torah was corrupted.”
“The Book of Mormon was corrupted.”
These statements are just not there!
Does the Qur’an endorse the various Christian canons known as the Bible?
However, the following statements are also not there:
“The New Testament is from Allah.”
“The Bible is from Allah.”
“The Book of Tobit is from Allah.”
“The Book of Mormon is from Allah.”
“The Injeel equals the 22 books of the New Testament”
“The Torah equals the first 5 books known as the Pentateuch.”
“Mark 16:9-20 is canon.”
But do Muslims have the right to question the Bag Ga-vita, Book of Mormon, the Book of Tobit, The book of Jude, The Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Mark 16:9-20, or the Zen Avesta?
Our answer to that is simply yes!
Based upon the Qur’an, Muslims have the right to view with skepticism any claim that a revelation is from Allah.
Before you proceed, you may also wish to read the following article:
We believe that Allah has sent a prophet to every people and thus has communicated to that prophet. However, not all of those communications sent by Allah to his prophets were preserved in their original or pristine forms.
“For We assuredly sent among every People an apostle,(with the Command), “Serve Allah, and eschew Evil”: of the People were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who were ungrateful” (Qur’an 16: 36)
“Of some apostles, We have already told you their story; of others, We have not;- and to Moses, Allah spoke direct;” (Qur’an 4:164)
“We did send messengers before you: of them, there are some whose story We have related to you, and some whose story We have not related to you. (Qur’an 40:78)
So one can readily see from the above that Muslims believe in the universality of the message of Islam. Every nation had a prophet sent to them. One of the proofs that Muslims would use to establish this is that every language on this earth has a word for Allah/God.
Specific types of revelations are mentioned in the Qur’an.
The Qur’an mentions four specific types of revelation in the Qur’an: The ‘Suhuf’ of Abraham. The ‘Taurat’ of Moses. The ‘Zabur’ of David and the ‘Injeel’ of Jesus.
Scrolls that Abraham had. (Which the Christians and Jews do not accept nor acknowledge)
We would now like to examine the use of the word ‘Suhuf’ in the Qur’an.
“The admonition will be received by those who fear(Allah):
But it will be avoided by those most unfortunate ones, Who will enter the Great Fire, In which they will then neither die nor live. But those will prosper who purify themselves, And glorify the name of their Guardian-Lord, and (lift their hearts) in prayer. Day (behold), you prefer the life of this world; But the Hereafter is better and more enduring. And this is in the earliest (Revelation),-The Suhuf of Abraham and Moses.” (Qur’an 87:10-19)
“Nay is he not acquainted with what is in the Suhuf of Moses-
And of Abraham who fulfilled his engagements?-Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another; He has promised a Second Creation (Raising of the Dead)..” (Qur’an 53:36-38 and verse 47)
Prima Qur’an Comments:
Now to our knowledge, there is no Christian or follower of Judaism who believes that Abraham was given a collection of scrolls that was a revelation from Allah.
They do not believe this, and we do not contain such a collection of scrolls today. This becomes a matter of belief. Now there are three pieces of information above that we have found to be very interesting.
Namely, the following:
Who will enter the Great Fire?
Mention of the Hereafter.
The promise of a Second Creation (Raising of the Dead).
Now, the Qur’an says that these three items are mentioned in the scrolls of Ibrahim and Moses.
However, a person can search the five books attributed to Moses and find nothing mentioned concerning the afterlife, the rising of the dead, or the hellfire. This is proof enough that the Torah today that Christians and Jews reference is not what Allah had in mind.
There are three possibilities:
A) Either the Qur’an is in error in making such an assertion.
B) This particular revelation is lost (either forever or somewhere at the bottom of the sea or in some temple waiting to be discovered).
C) The ‘Suhuf’ of Ibrahim and Moses today is mostly intact with some editing of the text.
As Muslims, We find it highly suspicious that the teachings about the raising of the dead and the hereafter would not be in the Torah. Especially since the Hebrew slaves came out of Egypt; a culture immersed in afterlife theology.
In fact, the jewishvirtuallibrary, which is to represent all things Jewish, accurately had the following to say:
“Jewish teachings on the subject of the afterlife are sparse: The Torah the most important Jewish text, has no clear reference to the afterlife at all.”
We would now like to look at the use of the word ‘Taurat’ in the Qur’an.
Torah/Tawrat: meaning teaching, instruction or law.
“But why do they come to you for a decision, when they have the Taurat before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith. It was We who revealed the Taurat (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah’s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah’s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah has revealed, they are (no better than) the ungrateful. We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, an ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah has revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.
To you We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and assessing it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that has come to you. To each among you have We prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which you dispute. (Qur’an 5:43-45 and verse 48)
Prima Qur’an Comments:
In regard to verse 43 above, there is a sublime oral tradition or ‘hadith’ about the Prophet Muhammed (saw) that relates to us the following:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar:
A group of Jews came and invited the Messenger of Allah (saw) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Messenger of Allah (saw) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in you and in Him Who revealed you. He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi'(No. 4431).
This whole account relates to what to do with married people who committed adultery. Do Muslims continue the practice that Allah revealed to Moses (as) or not?
Among the Jewish community in Madinah, this very issue came up. The charge was that the aristocracy committed adultery so much that the Jews dare not stone for every account of adultery. Muhammed (saw) had a man who could read, read the verse of the stoning, and it was applied.
The Qur’an says the following about the Taurat that Moses was given.
“By its standard have been judged the Jews.”
The Qur’an than goes on to say in verse 44 that If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah has revealed, they are (no better than) ungrateful disbelievers. We see that in this statement based upon verse 43 the Jews were chided for coming to Muhammed (saw) when they had the law before them.
Verse 45 states that it was revealed to them “Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.”
This statement of the Qur’an appears to also agree in principle with the statement found in Exodus 21:24-25. “Eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”
However, the very curious thing is why do Christians/Perennialist/Pseudo-Islamic scholars only quote part of the verse of the Qur’an?
The verse in total says, But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by what Allah hath revealed, they are wrong-doers.
You do not find this statement: “But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself.” in the sacred text of the Jews and Christians!!
Anyone who does not assert that the Qur’an is affirming revelation sent before it is also missing the fact that the Qur’an itself is setting its own criteria for truth is just being dishonest. As Allah clearly says, “And if any fail to judge by what Allah has revealed, they are wrong doers.”
Notice that verse 48 states: “To you, we have sent Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and assessing it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah has revealed.
The scripture that is being assessed is that which came before is the Qur’an. If it was perfectly preserved, it would not be in need of assessment.
It is very tongue in cheek for a person, be they a Jew or a Christian, to say:
“Oh, the Qur’an is confirming the revelation before it, but the Qur’an itself is not revelation.”
The only authority given to any revelation that precedes the Qur’an comes from the Qur’an itself. Anyone who misses this point is either being deceitful or simply hasn’t thought about it deeply enough.
Note: The Qur’an never says that the Torah is the five books known today as (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy)
Note: The Qur’an never says that the Torah is the five books known today as (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy)
If we examine the above statement of an eye for an eye. One may wonder. What happens if a person is blind and that person now blinds someone else?
If we take a text at face value and literal interpretation, it can become very problematic.
This is why in Rabbinical Judaism there is an understanding that Allah gave Moses the Torah as a written revelation as well as an oral Torah.
An example of the Oral Torah being quoted by the Qur’an
“On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person- unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land-it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.”
This could easily be a quote of/or something that predates Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5
This alone is enough to refute the ‘Kara-rite’ Jews and ‘Protestant’ Christian claims that Islam only validates and accepts a written Torah.
“Muhammed is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against the Ungrateful, (but) compassionate among each other. You will see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Injeel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Ungrateful with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.” (Qur’an 48:29)
There is no such similitude that we know of in the sacred text of what the Jews and Christians would consider the Taurat or the Injeel.
So there are three possibilities for this:
A) The Qur’an is wrong that such a similitude exists.
B) The entirety of the Taurat and Injeel message is not with us today.
C) The Taurat and the Injeel are not with us at all.
As a Muslim, we would hold that option B would be our position. We use the Qur’an as the final criterion.
“Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet, the Unlettered, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Taurat and the Injeel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honor him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.” (Qur’an 7:157)
The verse above says that Muhammed (saw) is mentioned in the ‘Law’ and the ‘Gospel’. Now there are a few ways Jews, and Christians and Muslims can approach this.
A) When it says ‘The unlettered” it could mean that this prophet is not spelled out by name. Or there could be a reference to a person who is illiterate. It could be a form of what we know as metonymy. Jesus (as) is not mentioned by name in the TNCH, for example. We
It could also be that there are allegories about this Prophet in the Torah and the Gospel that are preserved therein.
B) His name is mentioned in black and white and since we do not see that in today’s Torah or Gospels, then obviously, today’s Torah and Gospels are not what the Qur’an has in mind.
C) The Qur’an is in error as today’s Torah and Gospel of Jesus are intact and mention nothing about Muhammed (saw).
We are inclined to go with option A, and we give our reasons and justifications for doing so with the following entry:
In the end, we do not believe that the Qur’an states, for Muslims in black and white terms, what the Taurat is. We do know for certain that the Qur’an, nor the sacred oral tradition, state that Taurat are the five books commonly attributed to Moses. No one has yet proved this to us.
Even in the above hadith, where the prophet Muhammed (saw) says to bring the Torah, the burden of proof could go either way. By calling it part of the ‘Taurat’, the Torah is as appropriate as calling Qur’an 2:256 the Qur’an, even though it is not the entire Qur’an.
However, one argument that is brought forward and that is easily debunked is the idea that: “Well, Allah hasn’t revealed anything to Muhammed (saw) yet.”
This cannot be a solid argument because of the previous verse we mentioned.
“But why do they come to you for a decision, when they have the Taurat before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith”. (Qur’an 5:43)
One would be hard-pressed to believe that the Torah brought to Muhammed (saw) consisted of the five books commonly attributed to Moses. Let us argue that it could have simply been a scroll and that scroll is what we find in the book of Leviticus today. This would not argue that the entire book of Leviticus is endorsed; nor would it argue that the five books commonly attributed to Moses were endorsed either.
It would be a huge fallacy to assume, based upon today’s printing press, that every Jew and Christian had copies of their respective scriptures in one whole volume or corpus and took it with them everywhere they went.
This is wishful thinking indeed.
So on what basis could Muslims question the claims made about today’s so-called Taurat?
Muslims have a basis to question the claims made about today’s ‘taurat’ do to the internal evidence itself.
“How can you say, We are wise, and the Law of the Lord is with us’? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie,” (Jeremiah 8:8)
Note (Whenever you see that term ‘law of the Lord’ the Hebrew word is Torah)
“And Hiil-kiah, the high priest, said unto Shaphan, the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the Lord. And Hil-kiah gave the book to Sha phan, and he read it.” (2 Kings 22:8)
“The accession of Josiah and his eagerness to restore the worship of Jehovah led to the renovation of the Temple, and in the course of this, B.C. 621, the book of Deuteronomy was discovered. The priest took it to the king, who joyfully welcomed it and set about putting its program of religious reformation into effect. The dramatic story is told in 2 Kings 22 and 23. Josiah put a stop to the idolatrous practices of the people,…”
Source: (Edgar J. Goodspeed ‘How came the Bible?’ pgs. 22-23)
The Book of Deuteronomy is thought to be written by Moses.
“So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knows of his sepulcher unto this day. And Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.” (Deuteronomy 34:5-7)
Prima Qur’an Comments:
Does this mean that Allah, in His wisdom and power, could not choose to reveal to Moses the time of his death? It’s true Allah could have done so. Yet this response seems more like a theological response to what is plain to anyone who reads this.
It is most likely that Moses did not write, “I am 120 years old when I die.” The fact that the whole context refers to Moses in the third person supports this view.
Something fascinating and a step ahead may have been something like this. “The Lord revealed to me that I will be 120 years old when I die.”
Which 10 commandments?
You may hear many times people bring up the so called:
‘The 10 commandments’.
This might be an interesting challenge when engaging with our Jewish or Christian friends. It is not an exhaustive list to memorize. Ask your Jewish or Christian friend the next time you meet them to recite ‘The 10 commandments’.
Remember the Jews and Christians tell us that Allah gave Moses ‘The 10 commandments’. In fact, it is the only revelation known to be written directly by Allah. We are then told that Moses broke these the stones which the commandments were written on. So Allah said that he would re-write them.
And the LORD said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.” (Exodus 34:1)
“Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”(Exodus 34:1)
“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. “You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day. “Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the Lord your God is giving you. “You shall not murder. “You shall not commit adultery. “You shall not steal. “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor’s house or land, his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” (Deuteronomy 5:6-21)
“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. “You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. “You shall not murder. “You shall not commit adultery.“ You shall not steal. “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” (Exodus 20:2-17)
“Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. “Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same. “Do not make any idols. “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt. “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons. “No one is to appear before me empty-handed.“ Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest. “Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year. Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord, the God of Israel. I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the Lord your God. “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.“ Bring the best of the first fruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God. “Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.” (Exodus 34:11-26)
And the LORD said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.” (Exodus 34:1)
What was written on the first two tablets which Allah gave and Moses broke? The book of Exodus doesn’t record it.
The two different sets of 10 commandments are also problematic for many people to accept.
Lost records and books according to the Bible?
“Wherefore it is said in the book of the wars of the LORD, What he did in the Red sea, and in the brooks of Arnon, And at the stream of the brooks that goes down to the dwelling of Ar, and rest upon the border of Moab.” (Numbers 21:14-15)
What is this ‘Book of the Wars of the Lord’?
Who wrote it, and where is it?
If Numbers is the Torah that was written by Moses, then is the Torah quoting a historical document no longer with us?
Is this document inspired?
If it is inspired, then the idea that inspired writing can be lost to posterity should no longer be unheard of among Jews and Christians.
If this document is uninspired, then it should be understood that one may be inspired to quote from uninspired documents.
A Look At The Zabur In the Qur’an
Here is a look at the mention of the ‘Zabur‘ in the Qur’an. The mention of ‘Zabur‘ to our knowledge comes in three places.
The word Zabur is: understood to be a song or music.
“And it is your Lord that knows best all beings that are in the heavens and on earth: We did bestow on some prophets more gifts than others: and We gave to David the Zabur” (Qur’an 17:55)
“We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Apostle after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, Solomon and to David We gave the Zabur.”(Qur’an 4:163)
“Before this, We wrote in the Zabur, after the Message: My servants the righteous shall inherit the earth.” (Qur’an 21:105)
Many people today, both Muslim and non-Muslim, wish to associate the Zabur with the Psalms that are mentioned in the Bible.
The reason many do this is probably due to the statement above in Chapter 21, “My servants, the righteous, shall inherit the earth.”
Some see a parallel to this statement in Psalms 37:29 that says,
“The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever.”
There is a huge difference in that the Qur’an does not state that the righteous will inherit the land ‘forever‘. The statement mentioned in the Qur’an in its exact form is nowhere to be found and is lost. The closest proximity would be the passage citation of Psalms 37:29
Other than the quote above, we have no idea why Muslims or non-Muslims would assume that Zabur is the Psalms of David in today’s Bible?
We do not believe that there is a statement anywhere in the Qur’an or the sacred Hadith literature that states that the Psalms of David contained in today’s Bible is or has been corrupted.
Likewise, we also do not believe that there is a statement in the Qur’an or the sacred Hadith literature that equates the Zabur mentioned in the Qur’an with today’s Psalms of David in the Bible.
We believe this is fanciful thinking.
Any Muslim or Christian who disagrees with our position is welcome to state their reasons for doing so and provide the evidence.
A Look At The Injeel In the Qur’an
Injeel means: The good news. However, the etymological reality means revelation from an Angel.
First, let us look at some of the instances and mention of the Injeel in the Qur’an.
“Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our apostles: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary and bestowed on him the Injeel, and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of Allah. but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors.”(Qur’an 57:27)
We believe that Allah had given Jesus the Injeel (Goodnews singular). We would repudiate the following attribution to Jesus:
“His disciples said unto Him, “If the case of the man is so with his wife, it is not good to marry.” But He said unto them, “All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. For there are some eunuchs who were so born from their mother’s womb, and there are some eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.”(Matthew 19:10-12)
Of course, we would repudiate this based upon what Allah has revealed: based upon what the Qur’an says above: ‘the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them‘.
Now it can be argued that this only has Jesus recommending the practice, but Muslims would argue that this is an interpolation put in the mouth of Jesus based upon our presupposition, and our belief in what the Qur’an states. This was not ordered upon people. So the Qur’an would not confirm the above statement, but it would repudiate it.
“Then will Allah say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favor to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit so that you did speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity. Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Injeel and behold! You make out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and you breath into it and it becomes a bird by My leave, and you heal those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! you bring forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) you when you didstshow them the clear Signs, and the ungrateful among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic.” (Qur’an 5:110)
The Christians reject the above verse of the Qur’an because they say that this story of Jesus comes from apocryphal sources. This is a very dubious claim. They first want to assert that the Qur’an was an invention of Muhammed (saw), so they imagine that he retrieved this story from some Christians he had contacts with in Syria.
This would then beg the question. Wouldn’t those particular Christians find the story acceptable, and thus not apocryphal?
For example, let us imagine that Muhammed (saw) takes some source from the book of Revelation, Jude, or the book of James. There are many Christians of that time and era that would believe it to be spurious because those particular Christians only recognized a New Testament canon of 22 books.
For me, the Qur’an filling in some accounts of Jesus when he was a baby and his teenage years is very fulfilling and refreshing. I find it hard to believe that the ‘Son of God‘ walked around for 30 years of his life on this earth and didn’t do or say anything noteworthy?
For example, the New Testament says:
“Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.”(John 21:25)
We have dealt with this line of attack (used by skeptics, atheist, and agnostics) here:
So it seems rather odd that some Christians that are still disputing canon and scripture with other Christians would find it scandalous that a story of Jesus not found in one particular canon, oral tradition, or the other would be very similar to one found in the Qur’an.
The Bible itself says there are many things that Jesus did that are not written down, and the whole world would be filled with books if everything was to be written. To begrudge the Muslim revelation about Jesus’ early life when the New Testament is silent about 30 years of his life seems a bit self-refuting.
“Allah has purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Injeel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.” (Qur’an 9:111)
We have never found this statement anywhere in the Bible. As Muslims, this gives us pause that everything in the New Testament is the preserved word of God. The Qur’an specifically states that such a promise is made and binding. However, we have read the New Testament and have not found such a statement. As Muslims, it is a matter of self-evidence that the New Testament cannot contain all of Allah’s revelation given to Jesus, as the Qur’an states clearly that Jesus was given such a binding promise.
“And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Taurat and the Injeel” (Qur’an 3:48)
If we look carefully, we will note that in the above verse the ‘Book‘, ‘Taurat‘ and the “Injeel‘ are all different.
“Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom.”(Matthew 4:23)
Now this piece of information above is interesting. We believe every Christian would readily agree that Jesus was not teaching from a book. Jesus was not teaching from the Gospel of Matthew or Mark. These are writings that came much later. The Gospel that Jesus is teaching is what Muslims call, ‘the Injeel’. What Christians and Muslims dispute is the contents of this Injeel.
“It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, assessing what went before it; and He sent down the Taurat (of Moses) andthe Injeel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)”. (Qur’an 3:3)
The verse above in the Qur’an states that Allah gave the Injeel to Jesus and that he sent down Al Furqan (The Filter) that is able to distinguish, and it is one of the names of the Qur’an.
The next verse is also quite interesting.
“People of the Book! Why dispute you about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have you no understanding?” (Qur’an 3:65)
Now, this is an interesting point the Qur’an is driving home. We know that Abraham was not a Christian because Jesus brought his message after him. We also know that he didn’t follow rabbinical Judaism as the Law also came after him. So here we come full circle.
Sometimes, Christians will argue as such: “Oh, you Muslims, are supposed to look to the New Testament for guidance.” However, the Qur’an is calling both Christians and Jews to look back to that which is primordial, original, and primary.
“Let the people of the Injeel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah has revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel”(Qur’an 5:47)
*Note this is nowhere saying that Muslims need to look at the Injeel.
It also does not tell the Jews to judge by the Injeel.
This nowhere says that Muslims are to turn to the Injeel for direction and guidance. This statement is made to the people of the Injeel. Whatever they believe that Allah has revealed in it, then let them make judgments based upon that.
It’s not for Muslims because the following verse makes it clear when it says ‘So judge between them by what Allah hath revealed‘.
By the way, this text is proof that Muslims do not force Islam upon Christians. The Jews and the Christians, as history testifies, were able to derive their own marriage, divorce, and other laws based upon what they feel was revealed to them by Allah.
People may well ask what was that ‘Injeel’ that they were supposed to judge by? Notice that it says ‘what Allah has revealed therein’. The thoughtful Christian might ask how are we to know what Allah has revealed therein?
Of course, the average Christian is not asked to do redaction criticism. However, when we look at 2 Timothy 3:16 we get the following:
“Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.” (English Revised Version)
We have chosen this translation in English because it more accurately reflects the Greek. One must remember that the ‘Catholic’ and ‘Protestant’ factions of Christianity are in conflict over ‘Sola Scriptura’ meaning ‘scripture alone’.
Thus, the Protestant factions have mostly translated 2:Timothy 3:16 as ‘All scripture IS-inspired’.
For example, we have yet to receive a response from a Christian apologist of any sect about Paul’s First Corinthian Letter.
In 1 Corinthians 5:9, Paul said: “I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.”
While some would argue that Paul is referring to a previous section of 1 Corinthians (perhaps 5:1-8) rather than referring to a previous epistle, he then continued (in verse 10) to explain exactly what he meant by that statement, which is not what is said in 5:1-8. After explaining what the statement from the previous letter meant, Paul continued in 5:11 by showing the contrasting point, “But now I have written to you…”—explaining the difference between the statement from the previous epistle and the one from our 1 Corinthians.
So there are two ways to understand this.
That letter is inspired and thus not everything inspired by Allah is preserved.
Or, that letter is not inspired, and therefore everything written by Paul is not inspired by Allah.
The other matter is this curious statement at the end of John’s Gospel.
“Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.” (John 21:25)
As Muslims, we are a bit troubled that for 30 years of his life Jesus didn’t say anything. That, as Christian theology would have it, that Alah would ‘be in the flesh’ for 30 years not doing much of anything seems incredulous.
This really should be a matter of reflection for our Christian friends. Because if you believe that all of it is from Allah, then live your life according to it, be true and faithful.
However, if you are not sure about what Allah has revealed, then it means you have doubts. Many Christians will read (5:47) of the Qur’an, and they will totally ignore (5:66) and (5:68) mentioned below because it does not suit their interest.
Let’s look at the verses in context.
“To you We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and assessing it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that has come to you. To each among you have We prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute.” (Qur’an 5:48)
“And this (He commands): Judge you between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile you from any of that which Allah has sent down to you. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah’s purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.” (Qur’an 5:49)
“If only they had stood fast by the Taurat, the Injeel, AND ALLthe revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.” (Qur’an 5:66)
It is admonishing to stand fast not only by the Injeel and Taurat, but by all the revelation given by Allah.
Say: “O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord.” It is the revelation that comes to you from your Lord, that increase in most of them their obstinate rebellion and ingratitude. But sorrow you not over an ungrateful people.” (Qur’an 5:68)
Again, the people of the book, the Jews, are told to come to terms with the Christians. This means accepting John and Jesus and prophets sent to other nations. The Christians are told to come to terms with the Zoroastrians, and the other nations on this earth that were sent revelation, including the Qur’an. It says ‘all the revelation that has come from your Lord.”
“And dispute you not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it is with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one, and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).” (Qur’an 29:46)
“We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgement.” (Qur’an 10:93)
“If you were in doubt as to what We have revealed unto you, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before you: the Truth hath indeed come to you from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.”(Qur’an 10:94)
The Christians conveniently love to leave out the context of these verses. Verse 93 clearly states that the children of Israel fell into schisms.
Therefore, the understanding that they would give Muhammed (saw) would be very divergent one from the other. This is one of the main reasons why Muhammed (saw) had to be cautious.
When we take verse 94 in context with verse 93, what would we ask ‘those‘?
For example, if we asked about Jesus being Allah. What would rabbinical Judaism say?
If we asked the Kara-rites about hellfire and an afterlife in the Torah, what would their understanding be?
If we asked rabbinical Judaism about John the Baptist, what would be the response?
What about the followers of Zoroastrianism? They are also ‘those who have been reading the Book from before you ‘.
Notice also that there is a conditional statement placed at the beginning of verse 94 the Christians conveniently look over, the word ‘If’. Could the Christians or anyone claiming that Muhammed (saw) doubted anything in the Qur’an prove that he even once deferred a matter to the Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians?
“Oh, you who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He has sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Anyone who denies Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messenger., and the Day of Judgement, has gone far, far astray.” (Qur’an 4:136)
It is a dubious claim to equate the word Injeel with the entire New Testament canon. It becomes dubious on many accounts. The word Injeel or Gospel has never come to mean in any dictionary, ‘The entire New Testament’. Any Christian making such a claim is being woefully uninformed. Second, even if the word Injeel would equate to the ‘New Testament’, which one would it be? The New Testament of 22 books or the New Testament of 27 books?
Again, who was the body that decided which books were ‘Inspired‘ by Allah and which were not?
Why are Christians still in dispute about 5 books? In reality, 12 books considering the ‘Catholic’, and ‘Orthodox’ ‘Old Testament’ canons are different from those accepted by ‘Protestants’.
We believe there are some other points that we will address here.
However, we believe what is given is sufficient for Muslims to give pause to the idea that what Christians today possess is the Word of Allah, in its entirety.
The following text is quite explicit in that not every time that Paul spoke was he being moved upon by the Holy Spirit.
“Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife. But to the rest I, not the Lord, say this: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her.” (1 Corinthians 7:12)
“Now concerning virgins: I have no commandment from the Lord, yet I give judgment as one whom the Lord in His mercy has made trustworthy.” (1 Corinthians 7:25)
The above statements are contrasted below with where Paul was making decisions while concurring with the Holy Spirit.
“It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements.” (Acts 15:28)
“And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,” (Luke 3:23)
We are not comfortable with the fact that whoever is writing this has to guess the age that Jesus began preaching. Saying ‘about’. Though some may not find this very serious, we would hold inspiration from a deity to a different standard.
The next text is also troubling.
“Where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet “Out of Egypt I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)
The above is quoted from Hosea 11:1-2.
“When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt, I called my son.
But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images.” (Hosea 11:1-2)
We see the statement of Matthew 2:15 as a completely fraudulent and a dubious fulfilled prophecy claim.
We do not see the name of Jesus anywhere in the text of Hosea 11:1-2. We see that Israel is whom the text is talking about. Also, we believe that whoever wrote the piece in Matthew 2:15 completely ignored the context. We do not believe the context allows for this to be Jesus in any way, shape or form particularly. The reason being is that this statement ‘They sacrificed to the Baals, and they burned incense to images.’
As Muslims, we would never allow Jesus to sacrifice to false idols and burn incense to graven images!
These teachings are not compatible.
“Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:8-9)
O Prophet! When you divorce women, divorce them for their (legal) period and reckon the period, and keep your duty to Allah, your Lord. Expel them not from their houses nor let them go forth unless they commit open immorality. Such are the limits (imposed by) Allah; and whoever transgresses Allah’s limits, he surely has wronged his soul. You do not: it is possible that Allah will afterward bring about a reunion. Then, when they have reached their term, take them back in kindness or part from them in kindness, and call to witness two just men among you, and keep your testimony upright for Allah. Whoso believes in Allah and the Last Day is exhorted to act thus. And whoever keeps his duty to Allah, Allah will appoint a way out for him.” (Qur’an 65:1-2)
Finally, to those who are utterly blind, if this does not make you come to your senses about the matter, we are not sure what will.
“They say: “(Allah) Most Gracious has a son!” Indeed you have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, That they should invoke a son (like-kind) for (Allah) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should take a (like-kind) son.” (Qur’an 19:88-92)
There are too many verses in the New Testament that say Jesus is the son of God to make it compatible with the Qur’an.
So, since the Qur’an nowhere states that the Bible, Taurat, Injeel, Zabur or Suhuf are corrupted; then on what basis in the Qur’an do Muslims have the right to examine, investigate and question the Vedas, Book of Mormon, Infancy, Gospel of Thomas, Book of Revelation, Talmud, or book of Deuteronomy?
We as Muslims can do this based upon three verses in the Qur’an that tell us to be on our guard.
‘There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, ‘That is from Allah,’ but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah…’(Qur’an 3:78)
This, of course, is because most people during that time were illiterate (be they Jew, Christian, Zoroastrian, Pagan, or Muslim). They obviously could not read a book for themselves, but were told to be on their guard because of people not being forthcoming about what the text says, possibly taking advantage of their ignorance of the original language (that the person did not understand) or the fact that they were illiterate and couldn’t verify it.
We see this happening today and this is why all Muslims are encouraged to learn to read and write Arabic.
Every time you read a translation of the Qur’an you are reading someone’s theological musings as well. Same with any sacred literature that claims to come from Allah.
‘But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard: They change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent…’(Qur’an 5:13)
Now some Christians may act in a very mischievous way by attempting to say that the Qur’an confirms the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, The book of Revelation, The Gospel of Barnabas, The Gospel of Mark 16:9-20, etc. will say that the above verse of the Qur’an is only talking about people who change things with their tongues.
Any truthful reader can see as obviously and plain as day that the Qur’an says, “that they forgot a good portionof what was sent”and they changed the words from their places. This can only happen if there is an oral tradition being passed along and some people willfully pervert this oral tradition before it becomes text/OR it is a reference to those who willfully change the text.
‘Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: “This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.’ (Qur’an 2:79)
No doubt this verse is directly related to the following man-made law that is attributed to Allah.
The following says that Jews can give interest to non-Jews but not to one another.
“Unto a foreigner you may lend interest; but not unto your brother you shall not lend interest, that Jehovah your God may bless you in all that you put your hand on, in the land wherever you go into possess it. When you shall vow a vow unto Jehovah your God, you shall not be slack to pay it: For Jehovah your God will surely require it of you; and it would be sin in you.” (Deuteronomy 23:20-21)
Allah (swt) says in relationship to those who made such scriptures and attributed to Him:
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: “This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.’ (Qur’an 2:79)
This is the verse that conveniently is left out of the discussion. This verse does not say the Bible, or Injeel, Taurat, Zabur, etc. However, it does say that there are people who are in the habit of writing books and then saying, ‘this is from Allah‘. It is on this basis that Muslims have the right to be skeptical of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, The Book of Mormon, The Vedas, The book of Tobit, Hebrews, The Gospel of Barnabas, The Gospel of Mark 16:9-20, etc.
Another point that the Qur’an categorically rejects is that Solomon (as) was involved in shirk (association of partners with Allah). May Allah (swt) project us!
“They followed what the Shayatin (devils) gave out, in the Mulki Sulaymān (Kingdom of Solomon). Sulaymān did not disbelieve, but the Shayāṭīn disbelieved, teaching men magic and such things that came down upon the two Angels in Babylon, Hārūt and Mārūt, but neither of these two taught anyone, till they had said, “We are only a Fitnah (trial), so do not disbelieve.” And from these, people learn that by which they cause separation between a man and his wife, but they could not thus harm anyone except by the Leave of Allāh. And they learn that which harms them and profits them not. And indeed they knew that the buyers of it (magic) would have no share in the Akhirah (Hereafter). And how bad indeed was that for which they sold their own selves, if they but knew!” (Qur’an 2:102)
“For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God, as was the heart of his father David.” (1 Kings 11:4)
In the end, we have done our best to give an answer to the detractors of truth. If there are any mistakes, surely they belong to us. All the praise is due to Allah, the Lord of all the worlds!
“And when they hear what has been revealed to the Messenger, you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of what they have recognized of the truth. They say, “Our Lord, we have believed, so register us among the witnesses.” (Qur’an 5:83)
“Indeed, We have made it an Arabic Qur’an that you might understand.” (Qur’an 43:3)
﷽
We never met this beautiful soul, Joshua. May Allah guide him! He is a very intelligent man. This makes sense. We have a feeling that he is keen on Islam. However, just as he is aware that Judaism has various debates on various issues, he is also smart enough to know that the house of Islam, unfortunately, is not one big happy family.
Probing positions and views before deciding to commit to something IS an intelligent thing to do!
This man, Joshua, had Ali Dawah on the ropes when they were discussing the issue of whether Allah (swt) rested. Because, using a consistent approach, Ali Dawah began to realize he had no scope to argue with the forceful position of this young man. To Ali Dawah’s credit, he didn’t force the issue.
Now to this topic: Discussion with Josh (Jewish) | Is the Quran Being Uncreated Against Tawheed?
Abbas: “I don’t think it was its attribute. We, we’ve, I think we’ve answered the question many times that, with the knowledge of Allah, the Qur’an would have existed eternally. See. The actual physical book the mushaaf that was sent down and this is obviously an English translation, but the actual Arabic text when it was written down it is something that once it gets old it’s even burnt or it’s buried or whatever. To dispose of it in a respectful way.”
Abbas: “Burning it is actually not disrespectful in Islam. It’s a valid way of getting rid of an old manuscript that’s damaged and can’t be read, so you would have to have a new copy or whatever and the old one would be respectfully ah sort of ah, you know, gone away with in that way. But the knowledge of Allah, as a Jew, umm I think that you would accept that whatever knowledge Allah has, for example, the Torah itself. Would you say that the Torah itself is something that came into existence or did God have that in his knowledge but bring it into existence when he chose to?”
Josh: “So I believe that the Torah was in fact created. Only God himself is uncreated. But everything within the so-called “knowledge” of God is created at some point.”
Abbas: “Right, so then are you saying that there was a time when God did not know of the Torah?”
Joshua: “No, there was not a “time” before it, because God is above time. So God created time. Rather or not God created the Torah before he created time is not something I know.“
Abbas: “So, basically what were saying is that was there ever a moment when God did not know of the Torah?”
Joshua.” In a sense, yes. Prior to the creation of the Torah, there could be no knowledge of the Torah.”
Abbas: “So there was a moment when God had no knowledge of the Torah. (Now there is a moment there where the video does a flash sequence. I do not know if that means the video was edited or that is just a video effect.)”
Joshua: “Yes.”
Hamza: “So you don’t believe God has all full knowledge.”
Joshua, “No because, because knowledge we believe is an attribute of God. God’s omniscience is an attribute of him. Therefore, he created his own omniscience.”
Abbas: “Josh, is that a mainstream Jewish belief? In terms of actual rabbinical grounding. That the Torah, at one point God did not actually know what he was going to say. What God was going to give to Moses.”
Hamza (interrupts): “Josh, do you believe that God knows the future?”
Josh: “Yes, because there is no future when it comes to God. Cause for God all time, past, present and future” (could make out due to Hamza speaking over).
Hamza: “So then God knows what the Torah isn’t it always?”
(The team got Josh to admit they had a point that there could be no ‘before’ as he (Joshua) just admitted that past/present/future….)
Imran: (The best listener out of the bunch, in our opinion) He pivots back to the original question: “Your question was really an interesting one because you, you raised this as a question about Tawhid. And you said that this is uh, it requires an explanation having the Qur’an as an uncreated statement that the Qur’an is uncreated, and then you have Allah, who is eternal. Does it affect Tawhid in any way? That was really underlying thing that I think you were trying to get to. So I am going to give you an analogy. Now, obviously, all analogies are imperfect, and we can’t perfect analogies, particularly when it comes to the Creator. But I am gonna try and give an analogy to drawn on and explain. So you’re speaking, right Josh?”
Josh: “Yes.”
Imran: “Can your speech exist without you?” (Can you exist without speaking)
Josh: “I don’t know. Can my speech. Theoretically there could be my speech without me. I suppose. I’m not sure though.”
Imran: “I would say that that’s clearly, that clearly the answer to that question is No. Um, I don’t know how your thinking…if you did not exist, could your speech exist?”
Josh: “Depends. If my speech has to, if there’s prerequisite to the existence of my speech is the existence of myself.”
Imran: “Sorry, sorry to interrupt you. Your thinking. I don’t understand your thinking process. What you’re doing is your taking this speech and your giving it attributes. Now we agreed that speech is an attribute of the Creator. We’ve agreed this. Like just as speech manifests from you. Now the question is do the attributes exist on their own or not?”
Joshua: “With regard to attributes of myself or attributes of God?”
Imran: “So the analogy is to get you to think about the Creator. I am trying to use yourself as an example just to try and give that. So, for example is: Can your speech exist without you?”
Joshua: “So if we (God forbid) leave God out of this picture for this particular analogy. Um, otherwise it’s going to get far too complicated. Then for sure, then you would be right that my speech could not exist without me.”
Imran: “So now I’m going to say now let’s talk about the Creator. Now I’m going to say the attributes of the Creator can’t exist without the Creator.”
Joshua: “Yes, that’s true.”
Imran: “Yup, so now we don’t have a conflation between were not comparing two different things. The Qur’an is the speech of Allah. It’s an attribute you understand? So now the question comes. When we’re talking about (holds up the Qur’an) the text, do we/are we referring to that attribute or not? So there’s two things and now we have to differentiate this. The attribute we’ve agreed is eternal. Why? Because the Creator is eternal, the attribute is eternal. Therefore, the Qur’an is uncreated and eternal. So now that’s a dealt with thing. This is a (holding up the Qur’an) a creation, like somebody has put these pages together, written the pages and the ink down. This (holding up the Qur’an) is not that attribute.”
Joshua: “I understand the difference between the written Qur’an and the spoken Qur’an that..” (unintelligible as Imran talked over him.)
Imran: “So that means coming to the concept of Tawhid. It doesn’t impact that at all. Another example would be: Creation. One of the attributes of God is that he is the Creator. Now, (we agree with this yeah?) “
Joshua: “Yes.”
Imran: “So the creative command is not separate from the creator in any sense, right?”
Joshua: “I would disagree with that because, prior to because prior to having created anything, how can God be considered to be a Creator? In order to be a Creator you need to have a creation.”
Imran: “So o.k that’s interesting, so I think that you sorry Hamza, you wanna…”
Hamza: “You don’t need to create to have the attribute of a creator you just need to create to demonstrate the attribute.“
Joshua: “But that depends on how we understand what the attribute is. Um so, let me just think about how to explain.”
Hamza: (getting visibly impatient) “Oh o.k before Allah, before God created the universe, you believe God created the universe?”
Joshua: “Yes.”
Hamza: “Did he have the attribute of Creator?”
Joshua: “Before he created anything he did not….”
Hamza: “Did he have the attribute of Creator?”
Joshua: “No.”
Hamza: (Surprised) “No!? How did he create than?”
Imran: “O.K. Let’s change the word for a moment, Josh. Let’s make the word ability.”
Joshua: “Ability? o.k. Did God have the ability to create? Yes.”
Imran: “O.K so that’s the attribute.”
Hamza: “That’s the attribute.”
Joshua: “Oh that’s what you mean when you say attributes.”
Hamza: “The Creation is the manifestation of the attribute. Evidence of the attribute if you like.”
Joshua: “It’s the manifestation of ‘Ah’..” (light bulb moment).
Comments:
Over all, that was a very good exchange. In reality, the question Joshua poses is two-fold in nature.
Is the Qur’an created or eternal?
If it is created or eternal, does this pose a problem for the doctrine of Tawhid?
The first argument brought by Abbas is not a good argument.
The eternity of knowledge does not imply the eternity of the known. Otherwise, all things that have come into being would be eternal! Imagine saying, because Allah (swt) has eternal knowledge about Christ Jesus, that Christ Jesus would be eternal! Christians would just love that!
Imran seemed the more learned of the three, at least in terms of Sunni theology. He got straight to the point. However, Imran did a very clever cart before the horse when he asked:
Can your speech exist without you? Actually, we could ask: (Can you exist without speaking?)
The answer to that is yes. You can exist without speaking.
We affirm the attribute of “speech” for Allah (swt) as Imam Diya al-Din ‘Abd al-Aziza Thamini (raheemullah), says in his Mu’alim:
“Know that speech is sometimes referred to Allah in the meaning of negating dumbness of Him, and it then is to be understood as an essential attribute in the way of such attributes. And sometimes it is referred to Him in the sense of its being one of His actions, and it is then to be understood as such. So the meaning of His being Speaking, according to the first interpretation, is that He is not dumb; and according to the second that He is a Creator of Speech.”
Now this is where it gets a bit tricky for Sunni theology.
Imran: “So the creative command is not separate from the creator in any sense, right?”
Response: What do you actually mean by the creator and his attributes? Because the Sunni theological position is that the attributes of Allah (swt) are not equal to Allah (swt) nor other than his essence!
This is a very, very BIG problem for Sunni theology.
Questions for the Athari/Salafi school.
So, if the attributes are not identical to the essence or other than the essence, what are they?
Can you prove your claims that the attributes are not identical to the essence using kitab wa sunnah?
Using the Qur’an and the Sunnah?
Will you need to rely upon kalam?
Actually, a VERY GOOD QUESTION FOR ANY SUNNI MUSLIM IS:
‘What do you mean when you say God is one?’
This may come as a surprise to the readers. They may say the being is one, but can they really, since they also have these attributes that have a quasi/pseudo-being status, in that they are not equal to the being nor other than it?
The second point from Imran
Imran: “So the creative command is not separate from the creator in any sense, right?”
“And the angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: Allah gives you glad tidings of (a son whose name is) John, (who comes) to confirm A WORD (bikalimatin) from Allah lordly, chaste, a prophet of the righteous. (Qur’an 3:39)
Are we sure that we want to say that Jesus (A WORD) from Allah is not separate from the Creator?
On what consistent basis is Jesus Allah’s word and his spirit and yet be created when the Qur’an is Allah’s word and is eternal and uncreated? On what consistent basis is the claim made?
We are quite certain that Christians are going to be asking themselves why should I leave Christianity, which holds (even in the lesser Arian Christology) that Christ Jesus is a word emanating from the divine nature but sharing the divine nature only to embrace a faith that tells me that Christ Jesus is a word emanating from the divine being but not separate from the divine being?
“His are the creation and the command.” (Qur’an 7:54)
This is answered by the context itself:
Indeed, your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He covers the night with the day, [another night] chasing it rapidly; and [He created] the sun, the moon, and the stars, subjected by His command. Unquestionably, His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, Lord of the worlds. (Qur’an 7:54)
The most that this verse tells us is that, just as Allah (swt) is alone in bringing the universe out of non-being (into being), in the same way, He is alone in the management of it. He has no partner in its creation and in its management. None other than Him has anything of the creation and management. Rather, to HIM alone belong the creation and the command. The meaning here, clearly, is management. And there is nothing in that which even remotely points either to the eternity of the Qur’an or to its contingency.
Examples:
“Maintain with care the [obligatory] prayers and [in particular] the middle prayer and stand before Allah, devoutly obedient.” (Qur’an 2:238)
The middle prayer is not (separated) out of the genus of prayers, the guarding of which has been commanded.
“Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and His messengers and Gabriel and Michael – then indeed, Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. (Qur’an 2:98)
No one says that Gabriel and Michael are separated out of the genus of angels. The difference between them is relative.
“Indeed, Allah orders justice and good conduct and giving to relatives and forbids immorality and bad conduct and oppression. He admonishes you that perhaps you will be reminded.” (Qur’an 16:90)
No intelligent person will argue about justice being the doing of good, and the doing of good being justice.
The command (amr) of Allah (swt) has been mentioned jointly with what denotes its creation in many places.
“And [remember, O Muhammed], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, “Keep your wife and fear Allah,” while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah accomplished.” (Qur’an 33:37)
“[Remember] when you were on the near side of the valley, and they were on the farther side, and the caravan was lower [in position] than you. If you had made an appointment [to meet], you would have missed the appointment. But [it was] so that Allah might accomplish a matter already destined – that those who perished [through disbelief] would perish upon evidence and those who lived [in faith] would live upon evidence; and indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.” (Qur’an 8:42)
“There is not to be upon the Prophet any discomfort concerning that which Allah has imposed upon him. [This is] the established way of Allah with those [prophets] who have passed on before. And ever is the command of Allah a destiny decreed.” (Qur’an 33:38)
“He arranges [each] matter from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him in a Day, the extent of which is a thousand years of those which you count.” (Qur’an 32:5)
“Indeed, all things We created with predestination And Our command is but one, like a glance of the eye.” (Qur’an 54:49-50)
“Do the disbelievers await [anything] except that the angels should come to them or there comes the command of your Lord? Thus did those do before them. And Allah wronged them not, but they had been wronging themselves.” (Qur’an 16:33)
All of those examples should be more than sufficient to show our response!
May Allah (swt) open the eyes of the Muslim ummah. May Allah (swt) open the heart of Joshua and bring him to the right way.
If you would like to see more articles on the discussion of the Qur’an, is it created or uncreated? You may wish to see the following:
“Also, mention when the angels said, “O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good news of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary – distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near to Allah. He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous. “She said, “My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?” The angel said, “Such is Allah; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is. (Qur’an 3:45-47)
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“Also, mention, in the book the story of Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place toward the east and she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel, and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man. She said, “Indeed, I seek refuge in the Most Merciful from you, so leave me, if you should be fearing of Allah. He said, “I am only the messenger of your Lord to give you news of a pure boy. “She said, “How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste? “He said, “Thus it will be; your Lord says, ‘it is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter already decreed.” (Qur’an 19:16-21)
As Shaykh Ahmed Deedat (r) has mentioned in his Pamphlet “Is the Bible God’s Word?” page 11:
We do not have the time and space to go into the tens of thousands of — grave or minor —defects that the authors of the Revised Standard Version (RSV) have attempted to revise. We leave that privilege to the Christian scholars of the Bible. Here I will endeavor to cast just a cursory glance at a “half-a-dozen” or so of those “minor” changes.
1. “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a VIRGIN shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” (Isaiah 7:14 – AV) The indispensable “VIRGIN” in the above verse has now been replaced in the RSV with the phrase “a young woman,” which is the correct translation of the Hebrew word almah. Almah is the word that has occurred all along in the Hebrew text and NOT bethulah, which means VIRGIN. This correction is only to be found in the English language translation, as the RSV is only published in this tongue. For the African and the Afrikaner, the Arab and the Zulu, in fact, in the 1500 other languages of the world, Christians are made to continue to swallow the misnomer “VIRGIN.”
The argument goes (from the Jews) and the atheists, for that matter, that if the Gospel writer ‘Matthew’ had been inspired and directed by the Holy Spirit, then he (Matthew) would not have relied upon the Jewish Septuagint for the source of his quote.
Technically, the word almah more than not was used for a young woman that could be married. Being a young, unmarried woman, it was often understood that she was not married and thus, a virgin.
However, those who argue against this state that the word ‘bethulah’, which actually does mean virgin, should have been used in place of ‘almah’, which has the possibility of being a virgin.
The website: Jews for Jesus has the following to say:
We as Muslims could agree with our Christian apologist and say look, ‘almah’likely means ‘virgin’ and that is good enough.
The reason that it is not good enough is that the author of the ‘Gospel According to Matthew’ had made some huge blunders when being reliant upon the Greek Septuagint.
We will give a clear example: Believe us, there are many!
“When they drew near Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find an ass tethered, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them here to me. And if anyone should say anything to you, reply, ‘The master has need of them.’ Then he will send them at once. “This happened so that what had been spoken through the prophet might be fulfilled: Say to daughter Zion, ‘Behold, your king comes to you, meek and riding on an ass, and on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.’ “The disciples went and did as Jesus had ordered them. They brought the ass and the colt and laid their cloaks over them, and he sat upon them. The huge crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others cut branches from the trees and strewed them on the road. The crowds preceding him and those following kept crying out and saying: “Hosanna to the Son of David; blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord; hosanna in the highest.” And when he entered Jerusalem the whole city was shaken and asked, “Who is this? “And the crowds replied, “This is Jesus the prophet, from Nazareth in Galilee.” (Matthew 21:1-11)
This is disastrous. It is disastrous on several accounts. Whoever wrote the Gospel according to Matthew couldn’t have known the original Hebrew text. Instead, the Greek Septuagint was relied upon resulting in the mistaken belief that the so-called “prophecy” was about Jesus riding upon two donkeys!
Again, look at what Christian scholars have had to say about the matter.
4-5] The prophet: this fulfillment citation is actually composed of two distinct Old Testament texts, Isaiah 62:11 (Say to daughter Zion) and Zechariah 9:9. The ass and the colt are the same animal in the prophecy, mentioned twice in different ways, the common Hebrew literary device of poetic parallelism. Matthew takes them as two is one of the reasons why some scholars think that he was a Gentile rather than a Jewish Christian who would presumably not make that mistake (see Introduction).
7] Upon them: upon the two animals; an awkward picture resulting from Matthew’s misunderstanding of the prophecy.
So why could this be a Jewish contention against the Qur’an?
The Core of the Critique.
The criticism, as we’ve laid out, follows this logic:
The Christian Doctrine is Based on a Mistranslation: The Christian belief in a virgin birth prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 relies on the Greek Septuagint’s translation of the Hebrew word almah (young woman) as parthenos (virgin), rather than the more precise Hebrew word for virgin, bethulah.
Matthew’s Error Demonstrates Human Authorship: The author of the Gospel of Matthew (who used the Septuagint) further demonstrates his human fallibility by misreading Zechariah 9:9, thinking it describes two animals (an ass and a colt) instead of one animal described with poetic parallelism.
The Qur’an is Therefore Derivative and Human: Since the Qur’an also affirms the virgin birth, the critic argues that its author simply borrowed this “mistaken” Christian doctrine, which itself is based on a Greek mistranslation of a Hebrew text. This, they claim, proves the Qur’an is a human document from the 7th century, not a divine revelation.
The assumption that the Jew could make is that because Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Mary (May Allah honour her) that the “author of the Qur’an” simply copied the Christian doctrine — which in turn is based upon the Greek Septuagint and has no knowledge of the Hebrew text. Presumably, this makes the Qur’an all too human and not of divine authorship.
The Qur’an is Independent and Authoritative, Not Derivative. This is the most critical point. The Qur’an does not seek to prove the virgin birth by referencing the Hebrew Bible. It does not say, “And this happened to fulfill what was said by the prophet Isaiah…” as Matthew does.
Instead, the Qur’an narrates the event as a direct, fact revealed by Allah.
We as Muslims have a straightforward response to this. That is that whoever wrote the ‘Gospel according to Matthew’ was quote-mining the Jewish sacred text to get legitimacy for Jesus as the Messiah. Whereas, for us as Muslims, the Qur’an stands independent of any justification for the miraculous birth of Christ Jesus.
Muslims could agree with Christian apologists that almah can imply virginity. However, the Islamic position is stronger: We have no theological need to enter that debate. Our belief is not contingent on the interpretation of a single word in a text that could have been altered. Our belief is based solely on the clear, unambiguous words of the Qur’an:
“She said, ‘How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?’ He said, ‘Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, ‘It is easy for Me…””(Qur’an 19:20-21)
The Qur’an uses the phrase “while no man has touched me” (وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ), which is an explicit, clear statement of virginity that avoids the ambiguity of the Hebrew almah altogether
In other words, Christ Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. This is our belief as Muslims who believe in the words of the Qur’an.
This was a real event that took place. Where we part with the Christians is this:
The Christians in particular whoever wrote the ‘Gospel according to Matthew’ felt a need to justify this event by reference to the Hebrew scriptures albeit reliance upon the Greek Septuagint.
Conclusion:
The mistakes of Matthew highlight the human process of trying to fit Jesus into Old Testament prophecies, sometimes through forced interpretations and errors from using a translation.
The Qur’an, by contrast, displays none of this. It is entirely self-contained and authoritative. It does not make interpretive errors about Zechariah or Isaiah because it does not reference them in the first place. It simply states the truth of the event as revealed by Allah.
Therefore, the argument that the Qur’an “copied” a mistake actually proves the opposite: its independence from the textual corruptions and human errors that affected the previous scriptures. The Qur’an’s account of the virgin birth is not evidence of its human origin but rather of its divine origin, as it provides a pristine, uncorrupted narrative free from the dilemmas of biblical scholarship.
As Muslims, our belief in this stands apart from needing any proof text or citation from previous scriptures. With Allah is the success!
May Allah (swt) guide the sincere among them so that they do not perish in ever lasting hellfire!
Prima Quran 