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Complete Translation: Interview with Shaykh Sassi Ben Yahyaten (Ibadi Scholar from Tunisia)
We have translated from the interview found here:
If there are any errors or mistakes from the translation that we overlooked, kindly reach out to us.
Interviewer (voiceover): He is the most famous Ibadi Shaykh in Tunisia. On the rare occasions he attends a media meeting, today’s guest is Shaykh Sassi Ben Yahya Bek.
Interviewer (onscreen): Allah bless you. Thank you, Saad. May Allah give you health. Welcome to Jerba.
Interviewer: May Allah give you life. Today is a very special occasion. Many people do not know the Ibadi school. So, in the first segment, we will talk about the origin of this school and what it means. Most people know that Islam has Sunnis and Shiites. Are the Ibadis part of the Sunnis, part of the Shiites, or a completely different branch? What is Ibadism and who are the Ibadis?
Shaykh Sassi: In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Praise be to Allah, Lord of the worlds, and peace and blessings be upon the most honorable of messengers. Thank you for the question. Ibadism is an Islamic school that arose in the first century AH. Its founder is Jabir bin Zaid al-Azdi al-Omani, one of the great Successors (Tabi’un). It is not Sunni in the political sense of Sunnism, nor is it Shiite. Rather, it is a school that follows the Sunnah and the Noble Qur’an. One of the Orientalists called it ‘the third voice of Islam.’
Shaykh Sassi: The third voice of Islam, or the third path.
Shaykh Sassi: The third path of Islam. So it was established in the first century because Jabir bin Zaid died in 93 AH. It relies, like most Islamic schools, on the Qur’an as the first source, on the Sunnah as the second source, and on everything related… besides the Qur’an and Sunnah, it relies on opinion (ra’y), analogy (qiyas), and ijtihad, etc., expressed through ‘ra’y’. Why ‘ra’y’? To give value to human thought and human opinion in understanding the Qur’an and understanding the Sunnah. That is in terms of principle. What are the distinguishing features of the Ibadi school?
Shaykh Sassi: The features that distinguish the Ibadi school in creed, jurisprudence, biography (sira), or history – we call it ‘siyar’ (plural) – and I’ll give you an example: political thought and governance. Regarding creed: Ibadi creed is distinguished by combining confession by the heart, utterance by the tongue, and action by the limbs. In creed, action is part of faith. This is what is mentioned in all verses of the Noble Qur’an; it does not separate faith from action. Some Muslims say that faith is sufficient and action comes in second place. But we establish a strong link between faith and action. The faith of a believer cannot be complete unless he applies what he believes in in all aspects of life. What results from that? I will mention the features, but we must also note criticisms. What results from that is that a Muslim must be upright in his life. ‘Guide us to the straight path’ we repeat many times. Upright, and he does not commit major sins. This does not mean the Muslim becomes an angel. But if he commits a major sin, he must repent from it, hasten to repent to Allah, especially regarding the rights of other people. The rights of Allah are easy; perhaps repentance from them is easier, because Allah forgives all sins for those who repent and believe.
Interviewer: We will address this point of repentance. Give me the other features quickly.
Shaykh Sassi: Quickly, because whoever does not repent will be eternally in Hell. We will come to that point. The second point: jurisprudence is linked to creed. The third point: political thought. We do not have political Islam, we have political thought. If the great human principles mentioned in the Noble Qur’an are available, such as justice, equality, consultation (shura), and the rotation of political positions, then we accept this as political thought. Regarding ‘siyar’ (biographies/history), our ‘siyar’ are characterized by… meaning the application of all this in society, a literal application. Therefore, Ibadi societies are characterized by trust and honesty, as is known, for example, in Jerba, Tunisia. Then the status of women: the status given to women by Islam. They have their own opinion and stance in politics, in the selection of judges. If a woman is wronged… In the engineering of the Jerbian mosques, in the prayer niche (mihrab), there are two speakers (qawatan), right and left. If a woman is wronged by anyone, husband, brother, or father, she comes between the Adhan and the Iqamah, speaks through that speaker (a loudspeaker) and says, ‘I am so-and-so, daughter of so-and-so, wronged by such-and-such person.’ Then one of the ‘Azzabah adopts her case. If it is easy, it is resolved. If not, he adopts it, and the prayer is not held until someone adopts her case, defends her, and restores her right.
Interviewer: One of the ‘Azzabah. Explain to people what ‘Azzabah is. It is an ancient political system.
Shaykh Sassi: Yes. After the fall of the Rustamid state in 296 AH, the Ibadis in North Africa refrained from forming or establishing a state. After that, they thought of a social system that would bring together Ibadi communities. This system was called ‘Al-Halaqah’ or ‘Al-Azzabah’. It includes 12 or more members, headed by a person called the ‘Shaykh of the Azzabah’, who acted as a just imam governing the Ibadi community in all of North Africa.
Interviewer: We want to understand the name ‘Ibadi’. For example, the Shiites are the ‘party of Ali’ (Shi’at Ali), the Sunnis are the ‘Sunnah of the Prophet’. What about the Ibadis? What is the origin of this word?
Shaykh Sassi: Thank you. Ibadism is attributed to Abdullah bin Ibadh al-Murri al-Tamimi. He was a student of Jabir bin Zaid. He emerged in the political field because he defended Ibadism. He even had correspondence with Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan – these letters exist. He belonged to the large tribe of Banu Tamim, which the Umayyad state feared. So he emerged as a defender, but he has no jurisprudential opinions in Ibadi books. During the time of Jabir bin Zaid and until the second century, Ibadis were called the ‘Community of the People of the Call’ (Jama’at Ahl al-Da’wa) or the ‘Community of Muslims’ (Jama’at al-Muslimeen). What does Imam al-Salimi say? ‘Our opponents named us that, but we are satisfied with it, and its origin is that so-and-so was our lawyer and passed away, but this person has no remaining issue in the school.’ Others named us Ibadis. Why did they name us Ibadis? Because Jabir bin Zaid is disputed, and Ibadi was associated with the Kharijites because Abdullah bin Ibadh was with Ibn al-Azraq, then separated from him when they disagreed on fundamental matters regarding the relationship with other Muslims.
Interviewer: Are the Ibadis closer to Sunnis or Shiites? I don’t draw closer to this or that.
Shaykh Sassi: At the same distance from both sides.
Interviewer: No, we are an independent school, because ‘Ahl al-Sunnah’ is a political term.
Shaykh Sassi: ‘Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama’ah’?
Interviewer: ‘Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama’ah’ dates to 41 AH when the agreement took place between Mu’awiyah and Hasan bin Ali. That year was called the ‘Year of the Community’ (Am al-Jama’ah), an agreement between Ahl al-Sunnah and the Umayyad state. Thus ‘Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama’ah’ was formed. We follow the Qur’an and the Sunnah, the Sunnah of the Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. We are equally distant from all Islamic sects and schools.
Shaykh Sassi: Through my research to prepare this episode, I found an accusation being promoted as historical information: that the origin of the Ibadis is from the Kharijites. These Kharijites are divided into Azariqah, Sufriyyah, Ibadis… colors. What is the extent of the connection between the Ibadis of Tunisia, especially the Ibadis of the world today, and that group of Ibadis from the Kharijites? They are originally… Allah has purified our hands from that blood, so let us purify our tongues from it. The Great Fitna (Civil Strife) – we leave it asleep. Leave it asleep. But we will clarify a historical point: this accusation is stuck to us to fight us.
Interviewer: ‘Al-Khuruj’ (seceding/rebelling) has two meanings: political secession or secession from religion. If it is political secession, we are honored by it, because our predecessors seceded from the most oppressive state, the Umayyad state. The revolutions that occurred in 2010-2011 in Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Libya, and Syria – if so, all of these are Kharijites. Hussein bin Ali was a Khariji because he seceded against the Umayyad state. But more dangerous than this is that they stick this accusation to us, that we have seceded from Islam. These are our books, these are our beliefs, this is our conduct. Read them objectively, and you will find that we are the closest and most adherent people to the Qur’an and the pure Muhammedan Sunnah.
Interviewer: But do you support or deny the existence of a historical connection between the two groups: Ibadis of today and Ibadis of that time?
Shaykh Sassi: Of course, we call those early groups ‘Al-Muhakkimah’. Others call them Kharijites – a secession that was only political. As for sticking the accusation of seceding from the true religion, some groups among Al-Muhakkimah exaggerated in religion, were aggressive, and killed… but I challenge anyone, and I have said this in historical conferences, give me one established example where the hands of the Ibadis were stained with the blood of others, whether Muslims or non-Muslims. Just one example. The sanctity of a human being, Muslim or non-Muslim, is a great sanctity that God has made sacred. A drop of blood that we are never allowed to shed. Absolutely. The sanctity of a Muslim: his body, his blood, his wealth, his honor. And the sanctity of every human being must be respected.
Interviewer: There are many shared creedal points between you. For example, considering one who commits a major sin (fā’il al-kabīrah) a disbeliever or eternally in Hell. The disobedient Muslim will be eternally in Hell. Explain this point to us.
Shaykh Sassi: There is a term ‘kufr’ here. There are two terms: kufr of blessings (kufr ni’mah) and kufr of polytheism (kufr shirk). Kufr shirk – we distance ourselves from it; we do not accuse any Muslim of kufr shirk. But kufr ni’mah is committed by one who commits a major sin, whether Ibadi or non-Ibadi.Shaykh al-Salimi says: ‘We do not demand from the worshipper beyond his two testimonies of faith with belief. Whoever comes with the two phrases (the Shahada) – we say he is our brother, and we fulfill his rights.’ Whoever comes with the two phrases, ‘I bear witness that there is no god but Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammed is the Messenger of Allah’ – he is our brother in Islam. He has rights upon us as we have rights upon him. We do not declare anyone a disbeliever, we do not declare anyone an innovator, we do not ostracize anyone. Whoever says ‘There is no god but God, Muhammed is the Messenger of Allah’ is a brother in Islam, in addition to human brotherhood.
Interviewer: But here, you exclude him from Paradise?
Shaykh Sassi: We are not the ones who exclude. Read the Qur’an, and I challenge anyone to bring a clear Qur’anic verse indicating the exit of one who enters it (Hell).
Interviewer: So you rely on the Qur’an?
Shaykh Sassi: Of course.
Interviewer: But those who rely on hadith… there are hadiths indicating this and that. But the Qur’an… any hadith that contradicts the Qur’an is not accepted, as Shaykh Muhammed al-Ghazali said.
Interviewer: Let me interact with you a bit.
Interviewer: When we studied… Tunisia is known to be Sunni Maliki. But when we studied as children, we didn’t know what Maliki or Ibadi was. We studied in Islamic education that no matter what you do or what your sin is… you will be in the fire of Hell for a period of time… then you complete the required period in the fire… then you are purified from sins and go to Paradise.
Shaykh Sassi: Yes.
Interviewer: Why is this wrong?
Shaykh Sassi: Look at all the Qur’anic verses: ‘abiding therein forever’ (khalidina fiha abada). ‘Whenever they desire to get out of it, they will be returned to it.’ All Qur’anic verses.
Interviewer: Possibly this verse includes Pharaoh?
Shaykh Sassi: We will explain to you. A Muslim who commits a major sin, persists in it, refuses repentance, and refuses to seek forgiveness… as if, Allah forbid… as if he is arrogant towards Allah Almighty. What do you expect from him? A person who refuses repentance? Eternity in Hell? Committing a major sin is not the end of the world. Committing a major sin must be followed by repentance.
‘Repentance is only accepted by Allah from those who do evil in ignorance, then repent soon after.’ (Qur’an 4:17)
Interviewer: What if he seeks forgiveness, but was not given the opportunity to repent before he dies or passes away?
Shaykh Sassi:That’s why Allah Almighty says: ‘Race towards forgiveness from your Lord.’ (Qur’an 3:133) The Muslim must race. I emphasized in the first instance, especially the rights of other people. This idea has had a very positive impact on Ibadi societies. Look at Ibadi societies: we are very careful regarding the rights of others, we do not transgress. There might be some who transgress, but the general idea is that whoever commits a major sin repents soon after, seeks forgiveness from Allah Almighty, and finds Allah Accepting of Repentance, Merciful. If a Muslim persists in his action, does not seek forgiveness, does not do any good deed, does not apply anything of Islam throughout his life… what is the difference between this person and someone who merely utters the Shahada with his tongue? The tongue alone means nothing and bears no fruit. It must produce fruits in society: trust, honesty, uprightness, good conduct.
Interviewer: But the problem with this principle is that it places two types or categories of people far apart from each other, but with the same outcome: the disbeliever and the disobedient Muslim. These two meet the same eternal fate.
Shaykh Sassi: Paradise has degrees, and Hell has degrees. Give me the difference between a person who says ‘There is no god but Allah, Muhammed is the Messenger of Allah’… Look at what is happening now. Muslims are killing each other. One Muslim kills saying ‘Allahu Akbar’, and the other kills saying ‘Allahu Akbar’. What is the result? The result of negligence regarding these principles. He says: ‘Whoever says “There is no god but Allah” enters Paradise.’ Why the Qur’an? Why this commitment? Why did you come from Sfax to here seeking reward, seeking to spread thought, and perhaps tolerance? Why do I commit to the Qur’an, get up early in winter, perform ghusl, make ablution with cold water, pray, and deprive myself of many of the pleasures of this worldly life, as long as whoever says ‘There is no god but Allah’ enters Paradise, even if he steals or commits adultery? And the other returns three times… There’s a hadith from Abu Dharr that they narrate, but we do not acknowledge it because it contradicts the Qur’an. So what is the difference between me and a person who does not believe in Allah but performs deeds better than mine?
Interviewer: Okay.
Shaykh Sassi: You believe in this creed. This difference, even in creed, in this worldly life, should not spoil the friendship. You believe that the Muslim who commits a major sin… the Qur’an names him ‘Fasiq’ (rebellious/disobedient)… he will go to Hell, I will go to Paradise. You are free, and I am free in my creed. I do not declare you a disbeliever, and you do not declare me a disbeliever. These are matters of the Hereafter; we leave them for the Hereafter. You believe what you wish, and I believe what I wish. We remain brothers. I treat you as a believing Muslim. Whoever kills a believer intentionally… if you are a Muslim, I deal with you on this basis: I respect you, you respect me, and I do not pass judgment on you.
Shaykh Sassi: Because who knows? Perhaps your end is better than my end, even though they believe this creed. So in this world, we do not judge one another.
Interviewer: Last question on this specific point: you say that the committer of a major sin is in Hell forever if he dies without repentance. Okay. Does this not limit the vastness of Allah’s mercy, which precedes His wrath? And does it not contradict His saying: ‘and He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills’? (Qur’an 4:48) Are you restricting Allah’s mercy to repentance only?
Shaykh Sassi: Allah’s mercy is conditional in the Qur’an. ‘and He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills.’ Here, ‘for whom He wills’ – does it refer only to Allah?
Shaykh Sassi: No, there are different readings of the Qur’an.
Shaykh Sassi: It means man wills, and then Allah Almighty wills. When He commands you or commands me: ‘Race towards forgiveness from your Lord’ – we must race. Forgiveness requires us to repent. The Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and what will make you know? The Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, used to repent and seek forgiveness 70 times a day, and he did not commit major or minor sins.
Shaykh Sassi: So Allah’s mercy is what made us Muslims. Allah’s mercy is what made us apply the Qur’an. Allah’s mercy is what drives us to repent, as Allah commanded repentance: ‘Repent to Allah.’ How many verses in the Qur’an command repentance? Why do we differentiate? We apply the verse that commands prayer, and we apply the verse that commands reading (‘Iqra’)… an obligation, a duty. We left it and took other things. ‘Repent to Allah.’ A verse containing a command, and a command indicates obligation, unless there is evidence to divert it from obligation. ‘Race towards forgiveness from your Lord’ – a verse containing a command, and a command obligates racing. Not just repentance. When we gather all these verses, we must repent. Every son of Adam makes mistakes, and the best of those who make mistakes are the repentant. That is the difference.
Interviewer: Good. There is a point I want you to answer quickly. Through my research, I found an accusation that my mind did not accept. They say that there is a group among the Ibadis who hold a harsh stance against Imam Ali, to the point of cursing him and considering him not among the people of Paradise, but rather among the people of Hell. My mind did not accept this information, so I wanted you to clarify right from wrong in this story.
Shaykh Sassi: Regarding Imam Ali – we say ‘May Allah honor his face’. When we say ‘May Allah honor his face’, what does that mean? Allah honored him.
Shaykh Sassi: You… would you name your son after someone you disbelieve in?
Shaykh Sassi: Of course not.
Interviewer: Is the name ‘Ali’ common among you?
Shaykh Sassi: Of course. Is it reasonable that we name our sons with a name that we reject, disbelieve in, and ostracize? Is this acceptable?
Interviewer: No.
Shaykh Sassi: Enough. I’ll tell you who disbelieved in Ali – it’s not the Ibadis. The Ibadis defended Ali. Was Mu’awiyah, or whoever established the practice, cursed Ali from the pulpits? During the reign of Umar bin Abdul Aziz, an Ibadi delegation went to Umar bin Abdul Aziz asking him to remove and abandon this evil practice. This exists in sources from the year 99 AH. So who defended Ali? The Ibadis and others. I’ll add something: if anyone among us curses Imam Ali, he bears his responsibility alone. Look at our books; all of them narrate from Imam Ali. The Musnad of Al-Rabi’ bin Habib contains hadiths narrated from Ali. Would we narrate from a person we consider a disbeliever?
Interviewer: Enough. Let’s go back to the beginning.
Shaykh Sassi: Go ahead.
Interviewer: The Ibadi school, yes. Its prominent figures? When did it begin? For example, the Maliki school has Malik bin Anas, the Hanafi has Abu Hanifa al-Nu’man. Tell me about the Ibadi school: its figures and when it began.
Shaykh Sassi: The Ibadi school’s symbol, founder, and imam is Jabir bin Zaid al-Azdi al-Omani. He was born in 18 or 23 AH according to narrations, and died in 93 AH. He was one of the great Successors (Tabi’un) and studied under great Companions like Abdullah bin Abbas, Ibn Umar, Jabir bin Abdullah, Umm Aisha (may Allah be pleased with them all). Ibn Abbas has many sayings about Jabir bin Zaid: ‘If you meant Jabir bin Zaid, his knowledge would suffice you.’ I cannot mention all the characteristics of Jabir bin Zaid. He was the founder, established the rules, and founded the Ibadi school. After him came his student, Abu Ubaida Muslim bin Abi Karima in Basra, who died in 145 AH. Then after him, his student Al-Rabi’ bin Habib, who compiled the hadiths. Abu Ubaida Muslim bin Abi Karima had a school in Basra. He used to teach his students in a passageway, in a cellar, for fear of the Umayyad state. Students of knowledge came to him from the West and from Oman. Five from the Maghreb: Abd al-Rahman bin Rustam, Abu al-Khattab Abd al-Ala ibn al-Samh al-Ma’afiri from Yemen. Dawud al-Qibli, al-Ghadamisi, and Asim al-Sidrati joined them. They were called the ‘Carriers of Knowledge’, not the ‘Carriers of Weapons’. We are carriers of knowledge, not carriers of weapons. I emphasize this point. As I told you before, praise be to Allah, our hands have not been stained with the killing of any person, Muslim or otherwise. The Muslim, if he is a carrier of knowledge, not a carrier of weapons…
Interviewer: A carrier of thought, not…
Shaykh Sassi: Thought, yes.
Interviewer: The Sunni school, for example, is based on the Qur’an and Sunnah. What is the Ibadis’ view and creed regarding the Noble Qur’an? What are the sources and approved commentaries (tafasir) according to you?
Shaykh Sassi: The Noble Qur’an is the book revealed by God Almighty, preserved, ‘Falsehood cannot approach it from before it or from behind it.’ (Qur’an 41:42) ‘Indeed, it is We who sent down the Remembrance (the Qur’an), and indeed, We will be its guardian.’ (Qur’an 15:9) We do not say that it has been added to or decreased from, as found in other sources. The two Mu’awwidhatin (Surahs Al-Falaq and An-Nas) are part of the Qur’an, etc. Is it established with you that the Qur’an is complete and perfect?
Interviewer: Complete and perfect?
Shaykh Sassi: Complete and perfect. Evidence from the verse. Our school is also distinguished by the belief that the Qur’an was compiled during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. The Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, did not pass on to the Highest Companion except while the Qur’an was being recited and compiled in a single codex (mushaf).
Interviewer: Compiled in a single codex (mushaf)?
Shaykh Sassi: Yes.
Interviewer: But the well-known narration is that our master Uthman bin Affan was the one who compiled it.
Shaykh Sassi: That is the well-known narration among Ahl al-Sunnah. Among the Shiites, it is Ali who compiled the Qur’an.
Interviewer: What do the Ibadis believe regarding this point?
Shaykh Sassi: That the Qur’an was compiled during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, complete, recited, between the covers of a book. In the commentaries (tafasir), you find ‘Mushaf of Ibn Mas’ud’, ‘Mushaf of Aisha’, ‘Mushaf of Zaid’, etc. Many mus’hafs. What does mus’haf mean? It means a book compiled between two covers, starting with Al-Fatihah and ending with An-Nas. This idea and this creed removed the Qur’an from all the accusations directed at it by non-Muslims, especially that the Qur’an is incomplete, or that there were verses only found with one person or two. In the modern era, starting around 1990-1995, what is called ‘le Coran de pierres’ (the Qur’an of stones) appeared – verses found written on stones and rocks along caravan routes from Medina to Damascus and Yemen. These verses were collected, and they accused the Qur’an of being incomplete. Why? Because we say that the Messenger of Allah, may God bless him and grant him peace, left the Qur’an scattered on palm fronds, shoulder blades, etc. If the Messenger did not compile his Qur’an, his holy book, what did he do? Then during Ramadan, Gabriel (peace be upon him) would come and the Messenger would review the Qur’an with him. In the year he died, he reviewed it twice, called ‘the last review’. So he reviewed the Qur’an as it is today, with the order of surahs. Some say – I think As-Suyuti says – that the Companions were the ones who arranged the surahs. There’s a narration that Umar bin al-Khattab, when a person came with two verses from the end of Surah At-Tawbah, said: ‘If it were three verses, I would have made it a separate surah.’ With all respect to the Companions, do we believe that they would act with the Qur’an in such a way? Allah Almighty says: ‘Indeed, it is We who sent down the Remembrance, and indeed, We will be its guardian.’
Interviewer: Regarding the Companions acting with the Qur’an, there is a well-known narration about a well-known figure, the brother of our master Uthman bin Affan. When the Messenger narrated the revelation that came to him, this Companion would write it down, but he would write it with modification. When the Messenger noticed that, he took a stance against him. This narration is known. Do you believe it or deny it?
Shaykh Sassi: We do not believe all narrations that offend the Messenger. It might be authentic, but this supports our position: if the Messenger had not compiled the Qur’an, such narrations and such writings would have crept into the Qur’an.
Interviewer: Just as Isra’iliyyat crept in?
Shaykh Sassi: Isra’iliyyat. We do not accept Isra’iliyyat at all. Our creed is free from Isra’iliyyat.
Interviewer: The Ibadi creed, or the Islamic creed in general?
Shaykh Sassi: Our creed is the Islamic creed. We are Muslims before being Ibadis. We are Muslims following an Ibadi methodology.
Interviewer: Okay. The Sunni refers to Sahih al-Bukhari and Muslim. The Shiite refers to Al-Kulayni, for example. To whom does the Ibadi refer? What are their references, and how reliable are they?
Shaykh Sassi: We refer to the Musnad, the authentic Musnad of Al-Rabi’ bin Habib. Al-Rabi’ bin Habib is the student of Abu Ubaida Muslim bin Abi Karima, from the second century AH. It contains about 1050 hadiths. 90% or more of these hadiths are narrated in other authentic books (Sihah), sometimes with different wording. We take hadiths from others, like Bukhari and Muslim, if they match the Qur’an. Any hadith that contradicts the Qur’an, textually or in spirit, we do not accept.
Shaykh Sassi: Regarding the hadith in Sahih al-Rabi’: ‘Whatever comes to you from me, compare it to the Book of Allah. If it agrees with it, then it is from me; otherwise, it is not.’ So the correct criterion is this hadith. This is the opinion of many contemporary scholars, for example, Shaykh Muhammed al-Ghazali. This is Musnad al-Rabi’. There is also the Mudawwanah of Abu Ghanim al-Khurasani, also from the second century, which contains jurisprudence and hadiths that do not contradict the hadiths of Al-Rabi’ bin Habib.
Interviewer: Good. Let’s talk now about jurisprudence (fiqh). Jurisprudentially, which school is closest to you: Maliki, Hanbali, Shafi’i, Ja’fari? What are the most prominent points of difference?
Shaykh Sassi: In reality, in jurisprudence, you find much closeness and similarity between most Islamic schools. There are some points of disagreement, but they do not spoil the friendship.
Interviewer: For example?
Shaykh Sassi: For example, things that Tunisians notice: the Ibadi does not raise his hands at the initial takbir (Takbirat al-Ihram).
Interviewer: The Maliki raises his hands at the initial takbir, then lets them hang (sadl). We agree with the Maliki school on letting the arms hang (sadl). We do not fold them (qabd). We stand, we do not raise our hands at the initial takbir. We say ‘Allahu Akbar’ and that’s enough. Do you rely on hadiths for this?
Shaykh Sassi: Of course, we rely on hadiths in Al-Rabi’ bin Habib. ‘Pray as you have seen me pray.’ Jabir bin Zaid was the closest imam of the schools to the Companions. He died in 93 AH. He said: ‘I met 70 Badris (Companions who fought at Badr), and I absorbed the knowledge they had, like the sea…’ meaning Abdullah bin Abbas. So he was close to narrating from them. Let me give you another issue, for example, regarding fasting (sawm). In fasting, one of the conditions for the validity of fasting is ritual purity (taharah).
Interviewer: A Muslim cannot fast while in a state of major ritual impurity (junub)? Is that reasonable?
Shaykh Sassi: Other Islamic schools do not say that.
Interviewer: Meaning before dawn, he has intercourse?
Sheikh Sassi: No, excuse me. Even among the Maliki brothers, they permit fasting for a person who wakes up junub. Research the Maliki school. You wake up junub… investigate the issue.
Interviewer: By Allah, I didn’t know that.
Shaykh Sassi: You will find it. Is it reasonable for a Muslim to wake up junub during Ramadan?
Interviewer: What I know is that you perform ghusl and…
Shaykh Sassi: Before… if, for example, sleep overcomes you.
Interviewer: Sleep should not overcome you because you must take precautions, right or not? But with precautions, you set your alarm for 4 a.m., but the alarm rings and you don’t wake up.
Shaykh Sassi: This is being overcome. But if you insist and say, ‘No, I’ll wake up at 8 a.m. or after sunrise’… They rely on a hadith narrated by Aisha and Umm Salamah that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, would wake up junub and not perform ghusl. Is it reasonable that the Messenger…
Interviewer: Hadiths that offend…
Shaykh Sassi: Allah bless you. That’s what I wanted. This is a very important point of disagreement.
Interviewer: Ramadan, and the state of fasting in general, is a state of spiritual and physical purification.
Shaykh Sassi: And physical.
Interviewer: So reason aligns with the idea that we must perform ghusl and…
Shaykh Sassi: May Allah have mercy on your parents. You came up with this on your own, with an open mind. All people who do not have a preconceived mindset carrying a preconceived notion, the Ibadis accept our thought. Evidence is your own dignity.
Interviewer: Great. What are the jurisprudential rulings that distinguish the Ibadis?
Shaykh Sassi: There aren’t major jurisprudential rulings. I gave you an example regarding prayer (salah). Prayer, in all schools, is based on purity of body, purity of clothing, purity of place. Prayer consists of four rak’ahs for Dhuhr, Asr, and Isha, and three rak’ahs for Maghrib. We agree on all that. There is a small detail we differ on: in our silent prayers, we only recite Al-Fatihah.
Interviewer: Do you rely on a hadith for that?
Shaykh Sassi: Of course.
Shaykh Sassi: Dhuhr is four silent rak’ahs; we only recite Al-Fatihah. Asr is four silent rak’ahs; we only recite Al-Fatihah. The third rak’ah of Maghrib is silent; we recite Al-Fatihah. The last two rak’ahs of Isha are silent; we recite Al-Fatihah only. We recite Al-Fatihah with a Surah in the loud prayers, and the Sunnah and voluntary prayers (nawafil) are all loud.
Shaykh Sassi: For example, in the chapter on prayer: The Shiites combine prayers; this is permissible. The Sunnis do not combine prayers. What is the Ibadis’ stance on this?
Shaykh Sassi: It is permissible to combine two prayers for reasons, for example, travel.
Shaykh Sassi: Compelling reasons, sort of.
Shaykh Sassi: Compelling reasons. Give you an example now: a surgeon enters the operating room. Do we force him to come out to pray Dhuhr and leave…?
Shaykh Sassi: His work doesn’t permit that.
Shaykh Sassi: It doesn’t permit that. The traffic policeman… should he leave traffic and go pray in the nearby mosque? He is not permitted to do that. In this case, the student starts school at a specific time. He is permitted to combine Dhuhr and Asr, as early or late combination, in exceptional circumstances. But a person who is comfortable at home is not permitted to combine.
Interviewer: Shaykh Sassi.
Shaykh Sassi: Yes.
Interviewer: What is your creed regarding Allah?
Shaykh Sassi: Our creed regarding Allah is absolute transcendence (tanzih). It relies on a methodology: there are clear verses (muhkamat) in the Noble Qur’an and there are ambiguous verses (mutashabihat). We refer the ambiguous to the clear. ‘There is nothing like unto Him.’ (Qur’an 42:11) When you encounter ‘the Hand of Allah is above their hands’, it means the power of Allah is above their power. We interpret verses that could imply likening Allah to humans or anthropomorphism. We do not anthropomorphize Allah at all. We absolve Him with absolute transcendence, as commanded in the Noble Qur’an.
Interviewer:You have a principle of negating the vision (of God). You deny that humans can see their Creator on the Day of Resurrection and consider it intellectually impossible. From which aspect do you believe this principle? Always and forever from the aspect of transcendence?
Shaykh Sassi: Because when you see something, you perceive its characteristics, and it must be limited. Can a human see something infinite? Impossible. Furthermore, the issue of the vision of Allah is disputed: will Allah be seen at the standing (Mahshar) or in Paradise? Will all people see Him, or only the believers in Paradise? When a debate occurs between us and our brothers, in the end they say: ‘Allah Almighty will create another sense in us, besides sight, and then enable us to see Allah.’ We, to transcend Allah Almighty, say He will never be seen. ‘You will not see Me’ (Qur’an 7:143) He said to Moses. Al-Zamakhshari negates vision in this world and negates it in the Hereafter. Those who rely on the verse: ‘Some faces that Day will be shining, looking at their Lord.’ (Qur’an 75:22-23) ‘Looking’ (Nazirah) here… the verse is about the Mahshar. ‘Looking’ from ‘Nazar’ (waiting/expecting). They are waiting for Alla’s mercy and His admission to Paradise. We interpret these verses from the aspect of transcending Allah Almighty regarding vision. A final note: this issue is a matter of the Hereafter and does not spoil our relationship. I want to focus on this point: it does not spoil. If you believe that you will see Him, you will see Allah in Paradise. I strive to go to Paradise.
Shaykh Sassi: And I strive to go to Paradise.
Interviewer: Consider it an incentive.
Shaykh Sassi: Perhaps. But this issue, like the issue of the creation of the Qur’an, should not cause a rift between Muslims. Leave it aside.
Interviewer: Has it been established with you that any of the prophets actually saw God?
Shaykh Sassi: It has not been established. When this hadith or idea was narrated, I went to Lady Aisha (for her opinion). She said: ‘O man, my hair stood on end! Muhammed, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, did not see his Lord.’ Because some say that our Messenger saw his Lord during the Mi’raj (Ascension).
Interviewer: And most Islamic schools negate this.
Shaykh Sassi: Negate this.
Interviewer: Negate this. Okay. Let’s return to the Qur’anic verse you mentioned. Your principle that humans cannot see their Lord on the Day of Resurrection, they say this contradicts divine power and denies the verse: ‘Some faces that Day will be shining, looking at their Lord.’ So they interpret it as ‘waiting’ not ‘seeing’. Do you have definitive evidence that ‘looking at their Lord’ means ‘waiting’ and not ‘seeing’? The verse indicates… ‘to their Lord looking’ (li rabbiha nadhirah) is at the Mahshar, not in Paradise. ‘Some faces that Day will be shining, laughing, rejoicing, and some faces that Day will have upon them dust, covered with darkness. Those are the disbelievers, the wicked.’ When we take the Qur’anic verses and gather them, you will see that they indicate one thing: the expectation (nazar) of the Muslim who awaits the mercy of God Almighty. The other (darkness) for the faces of the disbelievers who have despaired of the mercy of God Almighty.
Interviewer: On the issue of prophetic infallibility (‘isma), do you believe in it?
Shaykh Sassi: Yes.
Interviewer: From major and minor sins?
Shaykh Sassi: Of course.
Shaykh Sassi: Good. His infallibility from major and minor sins, except for mistakes that any human can make. Because the Messenger of Allah is human, and to indicate his humanity… For example, regarding the pollination of palm trees in Medina. They used to pollinate the palms. He said to them: ‘Would that you had left the palms as they are?’ So they left the pollination, and the palm crop did not do well, producing poor dates. They told him, and he said: ‘You know your worldly affairs better.’ Similarly, when he dismounted at a location during the Battle of Badr, Al-Hubab bin Al-Mundhir came and said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, is this a place where Allah has alighted you, or is it opinion, battle, and strategy?’ He said: ‘It is opinion, battle, and strategy.’ He said: ‘Then let us move.’ These are human matters. We do not even consider them minor sins, just human mistakes.
Interviewer: There is a controversial issue raised recently. We studied in Sunni schools the story of ‘He frowned and turned away’ (‘Abasa wa tawalla) which was revealed concerning the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, when he was preoccupied with the elite of Quraysh. The Shiite periphery says that ‘He frowned and turned away’ does not touch the infallibility of the Prophet and could not have been revealed concerning him. Rather, they interpret this verse as having been revealed concerning the Companion Uthman bin Affan (may Allah be pleased with him). What is the Ibadis’ interpretation of this issue?
Shaykh Sassi: The Ibadis’ interpretation is that it was revealed concerning the Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. And as I told you, it does not diminish the value of the Messenger. He made an effort (ijtihad) to bring the elite of Quraysh disbelievers to Islam. He said… this was an effort on his part. This was a gain for us – he gained a Muslim. He could wait for the others, the Quraysh elite, perhaps to call them or attract them to Islam. The Shiite brothers who interpret that verse… this interpretation is their right, because he frowned and turned away… It is their right to interpret, and it is our right to interpret.
Interviewer: Regarding the Companions.
Shaykh Sassi: Yes.
Interviewer: Do you believe in the principle of the justice of all Companions? Give me yes or no.
Shaykh Sassi: No.
Interviewer: Because if you said yes, my question would be: do you believe in it absolutely?
Shaykh Sassi: That’s why I said no. We believe in the justice of the Companions before the Fitna (Great Strife). After the Fitna, the Companions became divided. The Companions who fought each other at the Battle of the Camel – they were Companions and not Companions.
Interviewer: Yes.
Shaykh Sassi: At Siffin – Companions and not Companions.
Interviewer: You said after the Great Fitna. Let’s go back to before the Fitna. It is said in some narrations that there were Companions during the time of the Messenger but were hypocrites. Other narrations say that there were Companions who plotted to overthrow our Messenger, even during some battles. Do you support these narrations or deny them?
Shaykh Sassi: Each narration must be considered individually. We do not generalize. There is truth to this, but we do not generalize, and we cannot dig into these matters. This is correct. The position is that the Companions are just, with exceptions.
Interviewer: With exceptions. Your position starts after the Fitna.
Shaykh Sassi: After the Fitna.
Interviewer: My question is about before the Fitna.
Shaykh Sassi: Before the Fitna, there were hypocrites mentioned in the Noble Qur’an.
Interviewer: But we do not search for who the hypocrite is unless he displays…
Shaykh Sassi: It doesn’t matter if they existed or not. The Qur’an is clear.
Interviewer: Only.
Shaykh Sassi: The Qur’an is clear. We cannot contradict the Qur’an, but it did not name them.
Interviewer: It did not name them, to preserve the unity of the nation.
Shaykh Sassi: Of course, of course. The Qur’an did not name them. We do not dig into these matters.
Interviewer: Good. So you do not seek Allah’s pleasure for all Companions. There are Companions you seek Allah’s pleasure for, and there are Companions you have a stance towards.
Shaykh Sassi: Yes.
Interviewer: Do we name them or not name them?
Shaykh Sassi: For example, Mu’awiyah.
Interviewer: Okay. Mu’awiyah. Many schools have a stance… Ahl al-Sunnah…
Shaykh Sassi: Even books… they refer to Ahl al-Sunnah books. Our books, praise be to Allah, are free from these things, because our predecessors saw that extra things neither advance nor delay a matter. So we should build on the positive that advances us and does not delay us.
Interviewer: What is your stance on the Rightly Guided Caliphs (Al-Khulafa’ al-Rashidun)?
Shaykh Sassi: The Rightly Guided Caliphs: Abu Bakr, Umar – by agreement. Uthman: he remained in the caliphate for 12 years. The first six years were according to the Rightly Guided Caliphate. In the last six years, his closeness to the Umayyads affected him, so his rule deviated from what his predecessors were upon. Even Sayyid Qutb mentions this in ‘Social Justice’, and Ibn Taymiyyah acknowledges this, but he blames the Umayyad environment, saying he grew old and aged, so it was easy to influence him.
Interviewer: So I understand from your words that the beginning of the decline of Islamic civilization started with the infiltration or dominance of the Umayyads.
Shaykh Sassi: Of course, of course.
Shaykh Sassi:And therefore Uthman was killed. Then comes Ali, our master Ali, who they recognized, then Talhah, Al-Zubayr, and our mother Aisha rose against him at the Battle of the Camel. Then Mu’awiyah comes to overthrow him.
Interviewer: Wait, wait. You just said something important. You said Talhah, Al-Zubayr, and Lady Aisha ‘rose against him’ (thara ‘alayh). The Sunnis say that Lady Aisha came out for reform. You said ‘rose against him’.
Shaykh Sassi: No, no, no. She did not come out for reform. Sources… historical book sources of Ahl al-Sunnah say that.
Interviewer: More than that, there was a Sunni Shaykh who appeared with me on the channel and said Lady Aisha came out to support our master Ali.
Shaykh Sassi: No, no, no. The source… if he has a source we haven’t seen, and researchers haven’t seen…
Shaykh Sassi: He hasn’t seen it. Enough. Because we say regarding her: Lady Aisha repented. She repented from that. Enough. Whoever repents, Allah accepts his repentance. When her camel was hamstrung, Imam Ali sent her back, honored and respected, to Medina.
Interviewer: The caliphate of our master Ali – what is your stance on it?
Shaykh Sassi: A legitimate caliphate, legitimate.
Interviewer: My question is not about its legitimacy, but your assessment of its duration, your assessment when the caliphate was established.
Interviewer: When… he was not permitted to rule.
Shaykh Sassi: Our master (Ali) was not permitted to rule. Talhah, Al-Zubayr, and then Mu’awiyah rose against him. He remained a short period and was not permitted to apply the rule.
Interviewer: And he was assassinated…
Shaykh Sassi: He was assassinated. Assassination is normally attributed to the Kharijites. But Hisham Ja’it, in ‘Al-Fitna’, and other historians prove that the hand extended for the assassination of Ali was a plot from Mu’awiyah. Clear. Read Ibn al-Athir, read other history books, you will find a very fabricated narration about how three people agreed secretly, then their secret came out, and they set up this theatrical scene. He said: ‘Sa’id bin Uthman was struck on his backside, so he could no longer father children. Amr ibn al-As was struck, and he didn’t go out for the Fajr prayer…’ All these are fabrications.
Interviewer: What is your stance on the wives of the Messenger Muhammed, may Allah bless him and grant him peace?
Shaykh Sassi: The wives of the Messenger are our mothers, the Mothers of the Believers.
Interviewer: Do you have a specific classification, or are they all on the same level?
Shaykh Sassi: We have no classification. We classify neither the Companions nor the Mothers of the Believers.
Interviewer: None has preference over another?
Shaykh Sassi: That knowledge is with Allah.
Interviewer: According to your reading?
Shaykh Sassi: According to our reading, they are all equal. We respect all of them.
Shaykh Sassi: When we say ‘our mothers’…
Interviewer: Respect…
Shaykh Sassi: Yes. We do not prefer one over another except… that is with Allah Almighty.
Interviewer: What is the Ibadis’ stance on Sahih al-Bukhari?
Shaykh Sassi:Sahih al-Bukhari is a book like other books, a human book. It contains right and wrong. Even Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani in ‘Fath al-Bari’, his commentary on Bukhari, rejects or contradicts some hadiths. Al-Albani criticizes some hadiths in Bukhari. Our principle: any hadith that matches the Qur’an, we consider it authentic. Any hadith that contradicts the Qur’an, we do not accept it.
Interviewer: What are the most important hadiths in Bukhari and Muslim that contradict your beliefs?
Shaykh Sassi: I don’t want to go into these details. But there are hadiths, for example, the story of Gabriel… the Angel of Death went to take the soul of Moses (peace be upon him). You know this hadith. It is not intellectually acceptable. Or the hadith that says Moses (peace be upon him) was bathing; the Children of Israel used to bathe naked, and Moses did not accept that. We absolve him of that. He went to a river, put his clothes on a stone, and the stone fled with his clothes… We accept that? No. Any hadith that diminishes the value of any prophet or any messenger, we do not accept it.
Interviewer: Ahl al-Sunnah accept this hadith; rather, they defend it.
Shaykkh Sassi: They are free to do so.
Interviewer: Are there other examples in Bukhari and Muslim that contradict your creed?
Shaykh Sassi: These contradict the Qur’an. Al-Razi mentions in his Tafsir the hadith that says: ‘Abraham (peace be upon him) lied, he only lied three times.’ Al-Razi says, narrating: He said to the narrator: ‘Do you accuse Abraham of lying?’ They said: ‘We would rather accuse Abraham of lying than accuse the narrator of lying.’ This is in Tafsir al-Razi, ‘Al-Tafsir al-Kabir’. Is it reasonable that a Prophet lied three times, and they don’t accuse the narrator, they accuse Abraham?
Shaykh Sassi: It is found in Tafsir al-Kabir by Al-Razi.
Shaykh Sassi: This means we absolve the prophets with a human absolvement. There is a difference between absolving the Lord Almighty and absolving the prophets. Human absolvement. The prophets are perfect people. They did not commit major sins. Even minor mistakes, we cannot call them ‘minor’ out of respect for the prophets.
Interviewer: Good. What is your stance on Abu Hurairah? I heard you in some videos saying things that some classify as dangerous about him. I want to hear from you: what is your stance on Abu Hurairah?
Shaykh Sassi: When we criticize a statement, we do not criticize the person. Abu Hurairah as a person is respected. But what is attributed to him – approximately 7000 hadiths – and he only became Muslim in the eighth year of the Hijra. The eighth year. Abu Bakr al-Siddiq (may Allah be pleased with him) and the senior Companions – Abu Bakr, Umar, Ali (may Allah be pleased with them) – only narrated a few hadiths. Abu Hurairah narrated both the insignificant and the significant, and his narrations contain many Isra’iliyyat. This means it is a criticism of the Companion’s statement, not of the Companion himself.
Interviewer: You told me that our Islam is free from Isra’iliyyat, then you tell me that Abu Hurairah was among those who introduced the door of Isra’iliyyat into Islam.
Shaykh Sassi: Yes, yes. Many hadiths… Allah Almighty created the universe in six days, then rested on the seventh… anthropomorphism of Allah Almighty. Many he narrated from some Jews who entered Islam. I emphasize, our criticism of Abu Hurairah is not a criticism of his person.
Shaykh Sassi: It is a criticism of what was narrated from him. And perhaps…
Interviewer: But he is one of the narrators of hadith, so he must be viewed with a critical scholarly eye in some cases.
Shaykh Sassi: Only critical, just critical. We view him with a critical scholarly eye. We do not attack the person. Ahl al-Sunnah venerate Abu Hurairah to the point of believing that he strangled a jinn. Do you acknowledge this narration or not?
Interviewer: No, no, no.
Shaykh Sassi: Because there is a breaking of the barrier between the human and the other.
Shaykh Sassi:No, no, we do not acknowledge this. We venerate all Companions who have not been proven to have committed heinous acts.
Shaykh Sassi: On the other hand, the Shiite sect says that if Abu Hurairah narrated to us, we would not believe him, because he used to narrate from people who disbelieved, not only from the Messenger.
Shaykh Sassi: We separate two things. In our book, Musnad al-Rabi’ bin Habib, which is our hadith book, he narrates from Abu Hurairah.
Shaykh Sassi: But he does not narrate everything from Abu Hurairah. So there is respect… we respect people, but respecting a person does not negate criticizing his statements.
Interviewer: Shaykh Sassi, let’s go back to history a bit, especially in Tunisia. Tunisia is known for being Sunni Maliki. When did the Ibadi school appear in Tunisia?
Shaykh Sassi: The Ibadi school in Tunisia appeared before the Maliki school.
Interviewer: Good, okay.
Shaykh Sassi: The Ibadi school appeared in Tunisia from 125 AH.
Interviewer: Documented that it appeared before the Maliki school? Reliable sources?
Shaykh Sassi: Yes, documented, reliable. Year 125 AH.
Interviewer: And the Maliki school appeared… with the Aghlabid state.
Shaykh Sassi: It appeared with the Aghlabid state. All of southern Tunisia was Ibadi. All of southern Tunisia, even the Sahel. We have texts proving that. Ibadis were in Mount Waslat.
Interviewer: So why did it recede?
Shaykh Sassi: It receded because the Ibadis were fought, a great and fierce fight.
Interviewer: By the Aghlabid state?
Shaykh Sassi: No, not just the Aghlabids. There was a balance of power between the Aghlabid state and the Rustamid state. The Rustamid state in Tiaret, Algeria, and the Aghlabid state in Kairouan. All of southern Tunisia was under the control of the Rustamid state.
Interviewer: Okay, why did it recede?
Shaykh Sassi: When the Fatimids (the Ubaydid state) came, they eliminated the Aghlabid state and eliminated the Rustamid state in Tiaret. North Africa became Fatimid. This is known. They fought the Ibadi school just as they fought the Sunni Maliki school. The Ibadis revolted against the Fatimid state. Abu Yazid Makhlad bin Kaydad, nicknamed ‘Sahib al-Himar’ (the Man on the Donkey), nearly eliminated the mightiest empire in the Islamic Maghreb.
Interviewer: This is the ‘Sahib al-Himar’ revolution.
Shaykh Sassi: Sahib al-Himar – why was he called that? Because this person was close to the soldiers with him. The soldiers rode splendid horses, and he rode a donkey, to tell them: ‘Pay attention, I will not flee from the battle. Even if you flee on your splendid, fast horses, I ride a donkey, I will be the last.’ This was the first revolution, around 330-335 AH. Then a second revolution led by a Shaykh named Abu Khazr Yaghla bin Zaltaf al-Wisyani. Why did these revolutions occur? They occurred to fight the oppression of the Fatimid state. When oppression became severe and its pressure intensified on the Ibadis, they revolted. They revolted, but the revolution did not succeed. The second revolution did not succeed. The fight against the Ibadis continued, trying to eliminate them. And indeed, Ibadis began to shrink little by little. They became confined to the mountain peaks… destroyed in southern Tunisia: Beni Khash and Tin Al-Haliyah? And in the Nafusa mountains in Libya, and on the island of Jerba. After that, when the Hafsid state came, they also tried to eliminate the Ibadis by all means. Therefore, they strongly enforced the Maliki school in Jerba and fought the Ibadis strongly there. If you want to expand on this, read the book ‘Ibadis on the Island of Jerba in the Modern Era’ by Muhammed al-Marami; it shows this from the archives. Then the Ottoman state came and eliminated what remained on Jerba.
Interviewer: Who are the symbols of Ibadism in Tunisia and their scholars?
Shaykh Sassi: Contemporary?
Interviewer: From historical to now.
Shaykh Sassi: Historical to now. There is the family of Abu Maswar, the family of Abu Sitta, the family of Al-Shammakhi, the family of Al-Misbahi. All these are scholars, thinkers. From the present era, for example, Shaykh Sulayman al-Jadawi, the famous journalist during the colonial era, who fought colonialism with his journalistic writings. Shaykh Muhammed Fadil bin Ashour mentioned him in his writings. Also, we have Shaykh Salem bin Ya’qub, the historian of the island, who died around 1990. Now we have Shaykh Dr. Farhat al-Ja’biri, who was a professor at the Faculty of Arts. He had great merit, thanks to Allah Almighty, in defining Ibadism and introducing Ibadi studies to the Faculty of Arts on April 9th, etc. He has many students now.
Interviewer: How many Ibadis are there today in Tunisia?
Shaykh Sassi: In Jerba, perhaps around… we don’t have statistics because…
Interviewer: According to estimates, between…
Shaykh Sassi: According to estimates, perhaps between 50 and 70 thousand.
Interviewer: A respectable number. When I visited the island of Jerba, I noticed unique architecture in your mosques. For example, the minaret: the higher it goes, the narrower it gets. Simple architecture. What is the wisdom behind this?
Shaykh Sassi: The wisdom is that all our mosques are simple, because the Mosque of the Messenger of Allah was simple. You will find no ornamentation in our mosques. The greatness of our mosques lies in their simplicity. We have types of mosques in Jerba: coastal mosques called ‘fortress mosques’ (masajid qila’), especially on the northeast coast of the island. Why? Because the island was subjected to Crusader attacks from the 6th century AH to the 10th century. Crusader attacks came by sea. There are guard mosques on the beach, small mosques where the people of Jerba stay to guard the coasts. When an overwhelming attacking force comes to the island during the day, they light a fire that produces smoke. This smoke is seen from those tall minarets – always guarding. When they see the smoke, they light a fire on the mosque for smoke, the message is sent, reaching every part of the island very quickly. The people of Jerba prepare to defend their island. At night, smoke is not visible; they light a fire that produces a flame. That flame is seen, and the news spreads. These are fortress mosques: Mosque of Miradjan in Mazraya, Mosque of Lakayn in Ghizan, Mosque of Tajdid in Fatu, and the Great Mosque you visited in Mallitah. In all these, the news spreads in less than the time of sight, because it is seen and transmitted by vision. They prepare to meet their enemy. Indeed, the people of Jerba defended their island alone. Aid did not come from the Hafsid state except sometimes after the island was occupied. The people of Jerba would attack the Spaniards, Italians, and Genoese and liberate their island. Were it not for their defense of Jerba, Jerba would now be like Lampedusa or Sicily. There are other mosques: schools, universities spread in every neighborhood of the island.
Interviewer: But the unique architecture… the minaret that narrows as it goes up… what is it?
Shaykh Sassi: That is architecture, a matter of architectural ijtihad. The architecture that narrows as it goes up when the minaret is tall… like in Tajdid.
Interviewer: But when the minaret is built on the roof of the mosque, it is usually square-shaped.
Interviewer: continuing): I noticed a unique creedal issue among the Ibadis. A group of you, or most of you, believe in the Isra’ (Night Journey) only, without the Mi’raj (Ascension). You rely on the fact that the Noble Qur’an mentions only the Isra’, not the Mi’raj. What is your stance on the event of the Isra’ and Mi’raj?
Shaykh Sassi: It’s not only the Ibadis; this is a point of disagreement found among many Muslims. To understand the Qur’an and interpret it… Among Ibadis, some say the Isra’ – no one denies it because it is clear in the Noble Qur’an. Regarding the Mi’raj, some interpret the verses of Surat An-Najm with a different interpretation. Some affirm the Mi’raj. They say the Mi’raj has not been proven, perhaps only in spirit. What is proven is the Isra’. It is not considered a core creedal issue by us, because it is a secondary issue, depending on the interpretation of the Noble Qur’an. Those who affirm the Mi’raj rely on certain verses, and those who do not affirm it rely on the interpretation of the verses. It does not spoil the creed at all.
Interviewer You personally do not believe in the Mi’raj? You said…
Shaykh Sassi: No, not all Ibadis disbelieve in the Mi’raj. There are Ibadis who believe in the Mi’raj.
Interviewer: There is no Ibadi consensus?
Shaykh Sassi: There is some difference of opinion.
Interviewer: You, as Shaykh Sassi Ben Yahya, do you believe in the Mi’raj or not?
Shaykh Sassi:I do not believe in the Mi’raj. I only believe in the Isra’.
Interviewer: Why? What is your interpretation?
Shaykh Sassi: Because the other verses that challenge the Messenger to ascend to heaven… Allah denies that. There are verses… as I told you, it’s not a fundamental creedal issue, only a secondary creedal issue.
Interviewer: Sheikh Sassi.
Shaykh Sassi: Shaykh Al-Khalili, for example, believes in the Mi’raj. I respect him, he is my Shaykh, and I venerate him.
Interviewer: Why does this stereotypical view exist? Why are the Ibadis viewed as Kharijites? Where did this come from?
Shaykh Sassi: All those who rely on books of sects and history books that do not scrutinize say that. No matter what we do, we cannot remove this mentality from them. Because if the concept of Kharijites is a political concept, then it should include everyone who revolted, starting from the Battle of the Camel, then Mu’awiyah, then Hussein, and so on. And everyone who revolted against their rulers in the modern era – they are Kharijites. But if it means seceding from the religion, we absolutely reject that, without reservation.
Interviewer: What is your stance on the early Kharijite groups that included Ibadis, Azariqah, and Sufriyyah? What is your stance on them?
Shaykh Sassi: Al-Muhakkimah were one group. Then, after killings occurred among them, and many were killed, there was a reaction to the killing, which caused extremism. This extremism… when Ibn al-Azraq, Abdullah bin Ibadh, and others wanted to leave Basra, they agreed on the secession. Abdullah bin Ibadh heard the recitation of the Qur’an being recited in mosques and hermitages. He said: ‘I will not secede from these people, for they are Muslims.’ He separated from those who would be Kharijites. The Kharijites went out attacking people and killing innocents. We are innocent of all that.
Interviewer: In my research, I found a historical accusation I don’t want to believe, so I will ask you about it. It is said that the Ibadis venerate and sanctify Abdul Rahman ibn Muljam, who killed Imam Ali (may Allah be pleased with him). What is your response?
Shaykh Sassi: You will not find in any reliable, respected book the sanctification of Abdul Rahman ibn Muljam.
Interviewer: What is the stance of Ibadis…
Shaykh Sassi: and Abdul Rahman ibn Muljam is not Ibadi. They say he was Sufri.
Interviewer: So, what is your stance on this figure?
Shaykh Sassi: We do not attack or sanctify any person in our books. If the accusations of murder are proven, he will be held accountable for it. We do not exonerate anyone. Conversely, you will not find cursing of any person in our books.
Interviewer: So, the murder is not proven in your narrations?
Shaykh Sassi: The murder is proven. But who killed? Who incited? Who planned? This is found in Hisham Ja’it and found in other books that explain it.
Interviewer: Is it permissible in the Ibadi school to pray behind a Sunni imam?
Shaykh Sassi: You came to Jerba. You must visit the mosques of Jerba – Ibadi and Maliki. You will find the rows mixed between Ibadis and Malikis. No difference in that.
Interviewer: There are no fanatical groups?
Shaykh Sassi: No, no, no. I don’t deny, perhaps there is a fanatic in this school just as there is a fanatic in the other school. But the predominant characteristic in Jerba, and we Ibadis are merchants spread throughout all of the Tunisian republic. We have no mosques in Sfax, Gafsa, Kairouan, Benzart, or El Kef. Our merchants pray in those mosques – the five daily prayers and Friday prayer – and they find no objection.
Interviewer: Possibly out of necessity?
Shaykh Sassi: He can pray at his home.
Interviewer: The reward is in the congregational mosque?
Shaykh Sassi: No, if the reward… it does not come from necessity; reward only comes with choice.
Interviewer: Beautiful. You have previously explained to me the specifics of prayer among Ibadis. But what are the specifics of your ablution (wudu), prayer, and call to prayer (adhan)?
Shaykh Sassi: There is no difference in ablution. Perhaps they accuse us of being strict regarding purity. This is an honor for us. For example, istibra’ (cleansing oneself thoroughly) from urine. People nowadays use toilet paper, whether available in the toilet or not. We, before toilet paper existed, must perform istibra’ from urine, then make ablution. Relying on what? The hadith narrated in Bukhari when the Messenger passed by a grave in Medina and said: ‘I came across two graves. He said: They are being punished, and they are not being punished for a major sin. As for one, he used not to clean himself thoroughly from urine. As for the other, he used to walk with slander (namimah).’ We maintain purity – purity of the body and purity of clothing – it is essential. This is the concern of all Muslims. We do not accuse any Muslim of not being thorough in purity.
Interviewer: This narration you mentioned, that the Messenger passed by some graves and heard…
Shaykh Sassi: No, not ‘heard’. Allah knows how he knew.
Interviewer: I didn’t say heard. He said ‘they are being punished’. My question is: Do the Ibadis believe in the principle of the punishment of the grave (Adhab al-Qabr)? Yes or no?
Shaykh Sassi: Thank you. This is also a point of disagreement among Ibadis, because it is not an issue we focus on. We focus on the major, fundamental issues that result in behavior for the Muslim. Whether we believe the punishment of the grave exists or not neither advances nor delays the matter. Among Ibadis, some believe in it and some do not. In this, you see the freedom of thought and reasoning among Ibadis. However, could it advance or delay? Because a person who has many, many major sins… we say it’s among the seventh impossible things that he will be in Hell. But on the other hand, there are people who have died but are very close to entering Paradise. We know that when a person dies, his deeds cease except for three. Those three, if they continue, he can enter Paradise. Therefore, the page of a person’s record is not folded until the Day of Resurrection comes and that person’s deed truly ends. So how does Allah judge His servant before closing his book? For this reason, this idea negates punishment in the grave.
Interviewer: I want to understand the position…
Shaykh Sassi: Because the Hereafter is the abode of recompense. The person in the grave is perhaps in the barzakh (intermediate realm) between this world and the Hereafter. Allah Almighty has not brought any verse in the Qur’an indicating punishment in the barzakh.
Interviewer: What is your interpretation of the issue of the punishment of the grave? Do you believe in it or not?
Shaykh Sassi: I do not believe in it. But there are among the Ibadis who believe in it, for example, Jabir bin Zaid believed in it.
Shaykh Sassi: So it is not enough for a person to be burned in the fire of Hell in the Hereafter, he also suffers in his grave before the deeds have even concluded? They rely on the verse about Pharaoh: ‘The Fire, they are exposed to it morning and evening’ (Qur’an 40:46). They understood the meaning of the verse. Among us, some see that punishment… what is the punishment? Is it physical punishment or spiritual punishment? Is the body punished or the soul? Therefore, it is an unseen matter (ghaybiyyah) that is best left aside.
Interviewer: What I understood from the Ibadis is that they do not like to delve into unseen matters.
Shaykh Sassi: In unseen matters, of course, for which there is no explicit text in the Qur’an.
Interviewer: Okay, Shaykh Sassi. The Ibadis go through stages, according to what I studied. You go through stages of ‘Duhur’ (Manifestation), ‘Difa” (Defense), ‘Shira” (Purchase/Sacrifice), ‘Kitman’ (Concealment)… These are all new words to me. Explain to people what Duhur, Difa’, Shira’, and Kitman mean. This characterizes Ibadi thought.
Shaykh Sassi: This is based on the biography (Sirah) of the Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. Duhur (Manifestation) is when governance is in the hands of Muslims, and they apply Islam completely, like the Messenger in Medina who established his state, and like the Rightly Guided Caliphs. The Ibadis add the Rustamid state. Manifestation means Islam is apparent, all its rulings are applied. If Muslims cannot achieve that, and the Manifestation period ends… what comes next? Kitman (Concealment) comes. Kitman is not ‘discretion’, it is not Taqiyya, it is not dissimulation as the French explain it. Kitman is when Muslims do not control the state. The Muslim cannot fully establish the rulings of Islam. He is in a state of Kitman; he suffices with personal obligations: prayer, fasting, zakat, hajj, etc. Here, the rulings of Islam are not applied, for example. I don’t want to focus too much on Hudud (penal laws) because Hudud are a part of the details. But Islam as a whole… we are currently in the period of Kitman. We pray, fast, give zakat, perform hajj. The rest of the matters are left to the state. The state applies them or not; it is free, and we do not interfere. This is Kitman. Al-Shira’ (Purchase/Sacrifice) is when oppression becomes widespread in society, and a type of awareness arises among a group of people, and they revolt against the oppressive ruler. They revolt if the revolution has a high chance of success. Revolution against oppression, provided that there is no aggression against property or innocent people. Usually, the revolution is from the outside, meaning they leave the capital or the country, as occurred in Tunisia in 2011. We call this Shira’ only, but with the condition that there is no aggression against property or people. This is a very essential and necessary condition. Al-Difa’ (Defense) is when the enemy attacks, the community organizes its ranks. For example, in all these matters, the state is involved. But in the past, when, for example, the Hafsid state existed, and the enemy came to attack Jerba, and the Hafsid state was in Tunis, 600 km away, for armies to come from Tunis… done. Jerba… the people of Jerba organized their ranks and chose a person they called ‘Imam of Defense’, because organization requires someone to lead. If the people of Jerba are victorious over the attackers, they either choose or elect this person for Duhur if Duhur is possible, otherwise they remain in a state of Kitman. As I told you from the beginning, after the fall of the Rustamid state, the Ibadis refrained from establishing a state, so they definitively moved to the period of Kitman. Are matters clear? Good, good, good.
Interviewer: Because some understood Kitman as Taqiyya (dissimulation).
Shaykh Sassi: We do not have Taqiyya. And Taqiyya is in speech, not in actions. Taqiyya is in speech, not in actions.
Interviewer: Actions are more important.
Shaykh Sassi: No, actions are more important, but especially actions that lead to committing sins. For example, actions like drinking alcohol – not permissible, even with Taqiyya. Not permissible.
Interviewer: Correct, correct.
Shaykh Sassi: But to say, for example… ‘except one who is forced while his heart is firm in faith’ (Qur’an 16:106) – this verse is clear. When we… we hope to reach this. But if someone goes to another country, a non-Muslim state, and they torture Muslims and say: ‘Disbelieve in my Lord, or we will kill you’ – it is permissible for you to do so in speech, not in action.
Interviewer: Clear. Do you recognize the legitimacy of the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates?
Shaykh Sassi: We do not recognize them, nor do we consider them caliphates. Rather, they were oppressive kingship (mulkan ‘adudan).
Interviewer: What does ‘adudan’ mean?
Shaykh Sassi: Kingship meaning seized by force and inherited by force. And this is established in your sources?
Shaykh Sassi: This is established in Sunni sources before our sources. We rely on reliable history books. Mu’awiyah seized power. He made a peace treaty with Al-Hasan on the condition that he would rule justly, and then after him, rule would be by consultation (shura) among Muslims. But he did not do that. He appointed his son Yazid. All sources know who Yazid was in terms of deviation. Then, when the Abbasid state came, they took revenge on the Umayyads and did even more than them.
Interviewer: And did even more than them.
Shaykh Sassi: More than them, of course. History proves that. It is all written in history.
Interviewer: Since you do not recognize these caliphates, does this make you believe that the rule or the Islamic nation at that time was in clear misguidance?
Shaykh Sassi: There is a difference between the nation and the rulers. The history of rule was a history of oppression and tyranny. As for the nation, it still had good in it. Evidence is the emergence of prominent figures in the nation who emerged with their courageous positions, even if only with words, to fight Umayyad tyranny.
Interviewer: According to your Ibadi sources, who was the legitimate imam who should have been the ruler of the Islamic nation in those times?
Shaykh Sassi: The legitimate imam was Ali ibn Abi Talib (may Allah honor his face) and his son Al-Hasan, according to the peace treaty. After Al-Hasan, the Rustamid state was established in the Maghreb as a legitimate state that applied the Shura. As for the Umayyads and Abbasids, we do not recognize them. There is a famous saying among our scholars: “Two men (Abu Bakr and Umar) and a caliphate (the Rustamid)” meaning the first two caliphs are recognized, then the legitimate caliphate moved to the Rustamids.
Interviewer (final closing statement): Shaykh Sassi, thank you for this comprehensive explanation.
Shaykh Sassi: Thank you. Allah bless you. This is our school: following the Qur’an and Sunnah, based on justice, consultation, and the purification of hearts. We are Muslims first, and we extend our hands to all who seek truth and brotherhood. Praise be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.
May Allah Guide the Ummah!
May Allah Forgive the Ummah!
